username |
utc date |
status |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 11:56 |
#eltchat Hello everyone - our first topic today is "Teaching Grammar at (zero) beginner level" - Join us in a couple of minutes pls RT |
ELTchat |
11/20/2013 11:59 |
RT @Marisa_C: #eltchat Hello everyone - our first topic today is "Teaching Grammar at (zero) beginner level" - Join us in a couple of mins |
Natashetta |
11/20/2013 12:00 |
RT @Marisa_C: #eltchat Hello everyone - our first topic today is "Teaching Grammar at (zero) beginner level" - Join us in a couple of minut… |
esolcourses |
11/20/2013 12:02 |
RT @Marisa_C: #eltchat Hello everyone - our first topic today is "Teaching Grammar at (zero) beginner level" - Join us in a couple of minut… |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:03 |
Hello and welcome to #ELTchat - anyone online to talk about teaching grammar to beginners? |
esolcourses |
11/20/2013 12:04 |
@Marisa_C Present and correct :-) #eltchat |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:05 |
@esolcourses Hi Sue - hoping you can lend your experienced hand with this #ELTchat - @avaloslori1 HI Lori hope you can stay awake |
leedsacademy |
11/20/2013 12:05 |
#eltchat I'm here and waiting to go. :) |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:06 |
@leedsacademy Welcome :-) is this your first #eltchat ? Remember to include the hashtag in all ur tweets @avaloslori1 |
OUPELTGlobal |
11/20/2013 12:06 |
@Marisa_C #eltchat How about using lots of visuals and context |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:06 |
RT @OUPELTGlobal: @Marisa_C #eltchat How about using lots of visuals and context > Great first suggestion |
esolcourses |
11/20/2013 12:06 |
@Marisa_C @avaloslori1 Hi back at you! #ELTchat. As my personal views on this are a tad unconventional, I'll let someone else start... ;-) |
leedsacademy |
11/20/2013 12:07 |
#eltchat yes my first as an active participant. excited to be here. |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:07 |
@esolcourses We 'd be interested to know your unconventional views and talk about them :-) #eltchat |
AmyDeLong |
11/20/2013 12:08 |
@Marisa_C RE Grammar to beginners: I like using cards with words/pictures for Ss to make the form on their desk. #ELTchat |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:08 |
How about diagrams, video clips, animations (e,g goanimate) and objects ? #eltchat |
OUPELTGlobal |
11/20/2013 12:08 |
@Marisa_C @esolcourses #eltchat What do you mean by unconventional? |
esolcourses |
11/20/2013 12:09 |
@Marisa_C Ha ha! OK then. My personal view re: teaching grammar to beginners at zero level is: don't. Or at least not explicitly.. #eltchat |
esolcourses |
11/20/2013 12:10 |
@Marisa_C IMO learners need chunks of high frequency vocabulary before they are ready to get to grips with explicit grammar forms #eltchat |
leedsacademy |
11/20/2013 12:10 |
@esolcourses Me too. I agree with you. #eltchat |
OUPELTGlobal |
11/20/2013 12:10 |
@esolcourses @Marisa_C #eltchat I'm sure a lot of people would agree with that |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:10 |
@esolcourses not unconventional - it's one of the approaches many colleagues opt for - #eltchat - you seem to be waxing lexical :-) |
esolcourses |
11/20/2013 12:12 |
@Marisa_C LOL! Yes, I have been known to do that on occasion ;-) At low beginner level though I think it's quite important... #ELTchat |
leedsacademy |
11/20/2013 12:12 |
I do think that students should know what a verb is though. #eltchat |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:13 |
Flipside vies (for adults only, mind) suggests 'explain rule 1st briefly & clearly then move to contextualised mean/ful practice #eltchat |
OUPELTGlobal |
11/20/2013 12:13 |
@esolcourses @Marisa_C #eltchat In a way, even grammatical items are lexical at beginner level - his, her, our - all lexical items, too |
esolcourses |
11/20/2013 12:13 |
@OUPELTGlobal @Marisa_C expect you are probably right on that. I think it's worth emphasising though, nevertheless #eltchat |
esolcourses |
11/20/2013 12:14 |
RT @OUPELTGlobal: @esolcourses @Marisa_C #eltchat In a way, even grammatical items are lexical at beginner level - his, her, our - all lexi… |
JoHart |
11/20/2013 12:14 |
Just abt to go to sleep but I agree @esolcourses @Marisa_C but I am lit rather than lang & so functional more imptnt than elegant #eltchat |
leedsacademy |
11/20/2013 12:14 |
Big difference between adults and young learners obviously #eltchat |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:14 |
@esolcourses for YLs no question that no grammar is the best approach #eltchat |
OUPELTGlobal |
11/20/2013 12:14 |
@leedsacademy #eltchat Can students use verbs without knowing the term 'verb'? |
OUPELTGlobal |
11/20/2013 12:15 |
@Marisa_C #eltchat Adults would appreciate, but what if not a monolingual class? |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:15 |
RT @OUPELTGlobal: @Marisa_C #eltchat Adults would appreciate, but what if not a monolingual class? > true - google translate helps |
leedsacademy |
11/20/2013 12:16 |
@OUPELTGlobal Yes, but I think it's helpful for them to be able to categorize them, realise they can be substituted for each other. #eltchat |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:16 |
What about using grammatical terminilogy - metalanguage - do you think a good idea? #eltchat |
esolcourses |
11/20/2013 12:17 |
IMO, adult beginners often need chunks of functional language that use more complex grammar forms than it's conventional to cover.. #eltchat |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:18 |
e.g. clause, subordination, conditionals, hypothetical meaning etc #eltchat |
ddeubel |
11/20/2013 12:18 |
Teaching conversation is teaching grammar: remember this classic series Sue? http://t.co/5JRU9SUlOX #eltchat |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:19 |
@esolcourses agreed - but is it possible to give them chunks and holophrases/ functional listings PLUS check grammar awareness? #eltchat |
leedsacademy |
11/20/2013 12:19 |
@Marisa_C In a word, no. I think that would just confuse learners. #eltchat |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:20 |
one could argue that grammar is generative where functions and phrases aren't #eltchat |
OUPELTGlobal |
11/20/2013 12:20 |
@Marisa_C #eltchat I'm not sure metalanguage is appropriate at beginner level - at least not metalang in Engl |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:20 |
RT @OUPELTGlobal: @Marisa_C #eltchat I'm not sure metalanguage is appropriate at beginner level - at least not metalang in Engl > agreed |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:21 |
But checking understanding that Ss understand meaning or which forms are regular or which order they come into is also grammar #eltchat |
esolcourses |
11/20/2013 12:21 |
@Marisa_C in some contexts, yes. I think it depends. IME uncovering grammar at a leisurely pace often tends to work better #ELTchat |
esolcourses |
11/20/2013 12:22 |
RT @Marisa_C: RT @OUPELTGlobal: @Marisa_C #eltchat I'm not sure metalanguage is appropriate at beginner level - at least not metalang in En… |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:22 |
All I am saying is that our discussion is not about using or not using the term grammar or terminology but about HOW to do it well #eltchat |
OUPELTGlobal |
11/20/2013 12:23 |
@Marisa_C #eltchat Agree. Functional phrases are chunks to memorise. If veer from exact phrase, where to go next? |
OUPELTGlobal |
11/20/2013 12:24 |
@Marisa_C #eltchat Yes, so lots of context and practice using it |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:25 |
From your comments, it looks like you would go for an inductive non explicit approach with TL in context and lots of opps for use #eltchat |
leedsacademy |
11/20/2013 12:25 |
@OUPELTGlobal That's why I think if Ss know what a verb is for example, they can them modify the functions a little to suit. #eltchat |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:26 |
RT @OUPELTGlobal: @Marisa_C #eltchat Yes, so lots of context and practice using it |
leedsacademy |
11/20/2013 12:27 |
what about student expectations? lots of Ss want explicit grammar. #eltchat |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:27 |
RT @leedsacademy: what about student expectations? lots of Ss want explicit grammar. #eltchat > True -Ts talk to Ss abt best way 2 this end? |
esolcourses |
11/20/2013 12:28 |
@OUPELTGlobal @Marisa_C the way I tend to do it is to build on simple chunks & introduce more words to form more complex sentences #eltchat |
OUPELTGlobal |
11/20/2013 12:28 |
@leedsacademy #eltchat So, lots of transformations: eg: I ___ running - sts input like/ don't like/ love/ hate/ etc |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:28 |
Sadly, also lots of YL parents have expectations of their toddlers learning rules and stuff - parent education needed!!!! #eltchat |
OUPELTGlobal |
11/20/2013 12:29 |
@Marisa_C @leedsacademy #eltchat Need for learner training? Choices for presentation? |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:30 |
RT @OUPELTGlobal: @Marisa_C @leedsacademy #eltchat Need for learner training? Choices for presentation? > absolutely - do this early on 2 |
leedsacademy |
11/20/2013 12:31 |
@OUPELTGlobal Exactly.Or change: dancing, singing. I think substitution tables help beginners form sentences that aren't formulaic #eltchat |
esolcourses |
11/20/2013 12:31 |
@leedsacademy Generally speaking I think you may be right, though I I'm not sure about zero beginner level... #ELTchat |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:31 |
A good idea is to fill them up with lots of rules then ask them to communicate - when they CAN"T, a gd moment to discuss best way #eltchat |
OUPELTGlobal |
11/20/2013 12:31 |
@esolcourses @Marisa_C #eltchat Do you create your own materials for this or use coursebooks? |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:32 |
RT @OUPELTGlobal: @esolcourses @Marisa_C #eltchat Do you create your own materials for this or use coursebooks?> Personally my own |
avaloslori1 |
11/20/2013 12:32 |
#ELTchat have a great week, thanks! Love the ideas here. |
leedsacademy |
11/20/2013 12:33 |
@esolcourses maybe not on their first day :) but I really think we need to give them tools to make language not parrot it #eltchat |
RainDeer3 |
11/20/2013 12:33 |
8 Educational Apps To Create Digital Portfolios http://t.co/ENhLHlJSZk #eltchat |
OUPELTGlobal |
11/20/2013 12:34 |
@leedsacademy @esolcourses #eltchat Yes, so personalisation of the structures so they can own them and manipulate |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:34 |
Might help to ask Ss before they even start a course how they think they will learn best and how they expect to learn grammar #eltchat |
esolcourses |
11/20/2013 12:34 |
@leedsacademy agree. I'm not suggesting we teach them to parrot it, but zero beginners need functional #English first and foremost #eltchat |
esolcourses |
11/20/2013 12:35 |
RT @OUPELTGlobal: @leedsacademy #eltchat Yes, so personalisation of the structures so they can own them and manipulate ] absolutely |
esolcourses |
11/20/2013 12:36 |
@OUPELTGlobal @leedsacademy Yes, I think personalisation at low beginner level is very important. #ELTchat |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:36 |
@esolcourses danger of the mythical grammarless pidgin creature afloat there - #eltchat Ss need to observe - hypothesize - experiment |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:37 |
@esolcourses So even if you begin with chunks - perhaps during feedback and error correction another doorway to grammar #eltchat |
leedsacademy |
11/20/2013 12:38 |
@esolcourses sorry, didn't mean to sound harsh. :) from my learning experience, loved being able to use what I learnt + experiment #eltchat |
esolcourses |
11/20/2013 12:38 |
@Marisa_C Ha Ha! mythical grammarless pidgin creature? ;-) I think maybe we are talking at cross purposes :-) #eltchat |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:39 |
@esolcourses I don't think so - creature exists in the literature and the grand debate abt whther or not to teach grammar #eltchat |
esolcourses |
11/20/2013 12:39 |
@leedsacademy No worries! You didn't :-) #eltchat |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:39 |
If you think about it, every approach created to date is in response to whether or not to teach grammar #eltchat |
esolcourses |
11/20/2013 12:41 |
RT @Marisa_C: So even if you begin with chunks - perhaps during feedback and error correction another doorway to grammar #eltchat ] agree |
OUPELTGlobal |
11/20/2013 12:41 |
@esolcourses @Marisa_C #eltchat Great image! I think we all agree that grammatical forms are important, though not impt to teach explicitly? |
esolcourses |
11/20/2013 12:41 |
MT @OUPELTGlobal: #eltchat Great image! I think we all agree that grammatical forms are important, though not impt to teach explicitly?] Yes |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:42 |
@OUPELTGlobal yes I think that's the generar drift - although the odd analytical learner can be give a grammar book orgy!!! :-) #eltchat |
HanaTicha |
11/20/2013 12:42 |
@Marisa_C Agree! But if kids were to create coursebooks, they wouldn't incude grammar. That's what we should consider with YL. #eltchat |
OUPELTGlobal |
11/20/2013 12:42 |
@esolcourses @Marisa_C #eltchat Yes, so inductive rather than deductive approach |
leedsacademy |
11/20/2013 12:43 |
#eltchat I think important not to be afraid of teaching some grammar explicitly. Ss have beginner English not beginner brains. |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:43 |
@HanaTicha yes all agree on this re YLs non analytical unable to grasp abstractions etc #eltchat |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:43 |
@leedsacademy important point #eltchat |
OUPELTGlobal |
11/20/2013 12:44 |
RT @leedsacademy: #eltchat I think important not to be afraid of teaching some grammar explicitly. Ss have beginner English not beginner br… |
esolcourses |
11/20/2013 12:44 |
RT @OUPELTGlobal: @esolcourses @Marisa_C #eltchat Yes, so inductive rather than deductive approach] yes. |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:45 |
@leedsacademy but much depends on L1 and literacy levels too #eltchat have taught 0 beginners who unable to deal with grammar concepts |
face_english |
11/20/2013 12:45 |
@Marisa_C What's the topic today? #eltchat |
leedsacademy |
11/20/2013 12:45 |
#eltchat an implicit approach (functions) with some explicit language focus can help both analytical and non-analytical learners |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:45 |
@face_english teaching grammar to complete beginners #eltchat |
OUPELTGlobal |
11/20/2013 12:46 |
@leedsacademy #eltchat That's a very good point. In some contexts, esp where Tchr can use the L1, it can be helpful. |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:46 |
RT @leedsacademy: #eltchat an implicit approach (functions) with some explicit language focus can help both analytical and non-analytical l… |
HanaTicha |
11/20/2013 12:46 |
@Marisa_C Moreover, YL don't need to talk about all aspects of reality- past, future. They'll do with present continous for a while #eltchat |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:46 |
@leedsacademy Teach implicitly summarize explicitly? #eltchat |
esolcourses |
11/20/2013 12:47 |
MT @Marisa_C much depends on L1 and literacy levels too #eltchat have taught 0 beginners who unable to deal with grammar concepts ] ditto |
gtorrado |
11/20/2013 12:47 |
RT @leedsacademy: #eltchat I think important not to be afraid of teaching some grammar explicitly. Ss have beginner English not beginner br… |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:47 |
What specific activities would you suggest as suited to acquisition type contexts for learning grammatical forms at beginner level #eltchat |
OUPELTGlobal |
11/20/2013 12:47 |
@Marisa_C @leedsacademy #eltchat Yes, especially if they don't know gram in their L1 or it's different. Analysing diffs can be useful |
leedsacademy |
11/20/2013 12:48 |
@Marisa_C I think it provides for both styles.#eltchat |
CarlosMontoro |
11/20/2013 12:48 |
RT @leedsacademy: #eltchat I think important not to be afraid of teaching some grammar explicitly. Ss have beginner English not beginner br… |
VeerleGrauwmans |
11/20/2013 12:49 |
If they learn English grammar as an foreign languague, I think you could easily translate the terms into their native language #ELTchat |
OUPELTGlobal |
11/20/2013 12:49 |
@Marisa_C #eltchat video - watch and listen to provide context. Role play |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:50 |
@OUPELTGlobal video to roleplay - better than just audio #eltchat yes |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:51 |
what about more trad paper based recognition/awareness activs e.g. a scrambled sentence - a cloze - a gapped dialog ? #eltchat |
face_english |
11/20/2013 12:51 |
Context should always be the focus, right? #eltchat |
OUPELTGlobal |
11/20/2013 12:51 |
@VeerleGrauwmans #eltchat Maybe at the end of the lesson, explanations in the L1? |
leedsacademy |
11/20/2013 12:52 |
Lots of chants/drills to see which words can be substituted. #eltchat |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:52 |
RT @face_english: Context should always be the focus, right? #eltchat > yes this necessary |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:52 |
RT @leedsacademy: Lots of chants/drills to see which words can be substituted. #eltchat |
esolcourses |
11/20/2013 12:52 |
RT @Marisa_C: RT @face_english: Context should always be the focus, right? #eltchat > yes this necessary |
esolcourses |
11/20/2013 12:52 |
RT @leedsacademy: Lots of chants/drills to see which words can be substituted. #eltchat |
HanaTicha |
11/20/2013 12:52 |
@Marisa_C Description of visuals (photos, magazine pictures, people in the class). Things happening right now, right here. #eltchat |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:53 |
@HanaTicha sure but we need ideas for other areas of grammar too not just the present progressive :-) #eltchat |
face_english |
11/20/2013 12:53 |
http://t.co/cQ4ErTW7jk #eltchat |
OUPELTGlobal |
11/20/2013 12:54 |
@Marisa_C @leedsacademy #eltchat Chants work with ALL ages as long as not overdone. Bring back Jazz Chants! |
leedsacademy |
11/20/2013 12:54 |
form sentences with one word from each box: sub aux vb obj I can play football I don't watch tv etc. #eltchat |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:54 |
Mingling activities such as 'find sb who..." for a variety of tenses or modals #eltchat |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:56 |
One of the probs with this level is that they cannot really do highly complex free activs such as problem solving etc #eltchat |
HanaTicha |
11/20/2013 12:56 |
@Marisa_C Oh, you can practise loads of things when describing pictures :-) #eltchat has got a brush, has painted, is painting, is about to |
OUPELTGlobal |
11/20/2013 12:57 |
@Marisa_C @HanaTicha #eltchat contextualised dialogues to read/ memorise / change |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:57 |
@HanaTicha Application drills then :-) yes agree #eltchat |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:58 |
@OUPELTGlobal the disappearing dialogue or 'vanishing technique" is a lot of fun too for memorising dialog #eltchat |
face_english |
11/20/2013 12:58 |
http://t.co/vX9DOUIDv4 #eltchat |
OUPELTGlobal |
11/20/2013 12:58 |
@Marisa_C #eltchat Maybe - at basic level. |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 12:59 |
RT @OUPELTGlobal: @Marisa_C #eltchat Maybe - at basic level.> possibly.. but well scaffolded and prepped |
HanaTicha |
11/20/2013 12:59 |
@Marisa_C Exactly. I'm off for another lesson to teach grammar :-) Thanks for the chat. Hope to see you in the evening. #eltchat |
esolcourses |
11/20/2013 13:00 |
RT @OUPELTGlobal: @Marisa_C @leedsacademy #eltchat Chants work with ALL ages as long as not overdone. Bring back Jazz Chants! |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 13:00 |
Time has flown by - is there anyone out there who would just love to write a summary of this #eltchat ? Looking for volunteer writers |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 13:02 |
Thank you all for joining and sharing your ideas - if you would like to volunteer and write this summary please contact me #eltchat |
Marisa_C |
11/20/2013 13:02 |
RT @face_english: http://t.co/TpXHWBye8F #eltchat > nice presentation thanks for sharing |
face_english |
11/20/2013 13:02 |
battleships: using a picture grid screencast.com/t/1pFXmFdC #eltchat |
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