username

time

status

ELTchat

1:58 PM

1st #ELTchat topic today "Alternatives in assessment and how to move away from the administration of formal tests in the classroom"

Marisa_C

2:01 PM

Ready to start #ELTchat? Our topic how to move away from formal assessment in the classroom  - who's present and keen to talk abt it?

4TheChallenge

2:02 PM

RT @Marisa_C: Ready to start #ELTchat? Our topic how to move away from formal assessment in the classroom  - who's present and keen to t ...

esolcourses

2:02 PM

RT @Marisa_C: Ready to start #ELTchat? Our topic how to move away from formal assessment in the classroom  - who's present and keen to t ...

Marisa_C

2:03 PM

@esolcourses Thank you for helping moderate this 1st #eltchat Sue - Shaun and James out of reach tofday

bhrbahar

2:04 PM

@Marisa_C #ELTchat I am ready =)

Marisa_C

2:04 PM

@esolcourses on the other hand, we might both go back to what we were doing before - no one else seems to be here for #ELTchat

SimonGreenall

2:05 PM

@Marisa_C @esolcourses Hello, Marisa and Sue! #eltchat I'm kind of here.

Marisa_C

2:05 PM

@prese1 @bhrbahar  #ELTchat hello and welcome :-)

esolcourses

2:05 PM

@Marisa_C happy to help our when I can! & LOL! Shall we make a start? :-) Portfolio based assessment is one alternative #eltchat

prese1

2:05 PM

hello everyone :) #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:06 PM

@SimonGreenall  #eltchat welcome Simon! kind of nice to have u kind of here :-)

Marisa_C

2:07 PM

Doesn't look as if we need to define 'formal' does it ? Tho quick for readers' sake, written, criterion based, graded...... #ELTchat

prese1

2:07 PM

@esolcourses @Marisa_C  Portfolio based learning? #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:08 PM

@prese1  #eltchat Yes, a selection of a student's production (written) and now (digitally possible) spoken as well #ELTchat

Marisa_C

2:09 PM

@prese1  #eltchat all

prese1

2:09 PM

@esolcourses @Marisa_C  age groups? #eltchat

esolcourses

2:09 PM

@prese1 @Marisa_C learners are assessed on a portfolio of work rather than taking an exam. Less pressure/more personalised #eltchat

BobK99

2:10 PM

RT @Marisa_C: @esolcourses ...no one else seems to be here for #ELTchat > au contraire - just late :)

Marisa_C

2:11 PM

Here is the EU website for portfolio assessment   http://t.co/XIhjvx3x #eltchat

eltknowledge

2:12 PM

Do we consider placement testing as formal assessment too? #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:12 PM

@eltknowledge @BobK99  #ELTchat oooohhh great! time to move beyond the basics then :-)

bhrbahar

2:12 PM

@esolcourses @prese1 @Marisa_C #ELTchat  they focus on communication, production not on right or wrong answers.

esolcourses

2:12 PM

RT @Marisa_C: Here is the EU website for portfolio assessment   http://t.co/XIhjvx3x #eltchat

eltknowledge

2:12 PM

Hi everyone! I'm here to join in on today's #ELTchat ! - Chia

esolcourses

2:13 PM

RT @eltknowledge: Do we consider placement testing as formal assessment too? #eltchat ] depends how it is done, perhaps?

Marisa_C

2:13 PM

Here is a guideline document on portfolios from Europa http://t.co/t7gucrY6 #eltchat for those who have not use portfolio assessments

eltknowledge

2:14 PM

@esolcourses @Marisa_C What are self placement models? Pardon the ignorance. #eltchat

cuppa_coffee

2:14 PM

@Marisa_C @esolcourses I'm checking in too... #ELTchat

Marisa_C

2:14 PM

RT @eltknowledge: Do we consider placement testing as formal assessment too? #eltchat > I think so - not self placement models tho

eltknowledge

2:15 PM

@Marisa_C That sounds interesting! How do learners do that? #eltchat

cuppa_coffee

2:15 PM

@chiasuan Can we not assign scores toassessed portfolios?? eg. CEFR grades by competency #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:15 PM

@eltknowledge  #eltchat the elarners decide on their level -

esolcourses

2:15 PM

@cuppa_coffee @Marisa_C good to see you here :-) #eltchat

BobK99

2:16 PM

#ELTchat The only formal assessment I was involved in didn't involve writing at all - it was for the National Open College Network -...1/2

prese1

2:16 PM

@Marisa_C is it my impression or does it need learner autonomy? #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:16 PM

@eltknowledge  #eltchat one example I have seen all in a large room and move from grp to grp

cuppa_coffee

2:17 PM

@eltknowledge @esolcourses @Marisa_C self-placement = self-evaluation often reliable predictor if future performance #ELTchat

eltknowledge

2:17 PM

@Marisa_C Fascinating. I'd love to see that in action. #eltchat

esolcourses

2:17 PM

@Marisa_C @eltknowledge  in theory, letting learners decide on level sounds good - not sure it would work in all contexts #eltchat

bhrbahar

2:17 PM

@Marisa_C @eltknowledge #ELTchat the learners can have opportunity to assess themselves and their peers as well.

chiasuan

2:17 PM

@cuppa_coffee I'd certainly be up 4that! Teachers continually assessment the progress of sts & giving CEFR scores. #eltchat

eltknowledge

2:18 PM

I have a huge problem with discrete item testing, but if the formal tests evaluate general competencies, I'm more 4 it. #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:18 PM

@esolcourses  #eltchat no self placement would certainly not work in all contexts - but is an example of informal

Marisa_C

2:19 PM

@eltknowledge  #eltchat A good activity for summer courses i think

cuppa_coffee

2:19 PM

@eltknowledge @Marisa_C could use CEFR or European Language Portfolio. Adapt to your context. #ELTchat

BobK99

2:20 PM

#ELTchat ...2/2 FWIW there web site is https://t.co/a6xALCmA - but it wasn't ELT (Pg, beginners, writing was just not on the agenda)

cuppa_coffee

2:21 PM

@bhrbahar @Marisa_C @eltknowledge could combine self & peer assessment in Maria's group activity #ELTchat

cuppa_coffee

2:22 PM

@esolcourses @Marisa_C @eltknowledge still need to verify result by teacher, peers or sample writing/speech #ELTchat

eltknowledge

2:22 PM

AS the CEFR are only descriptors, how do u train teachers to apply them appropriately when testing? #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:22 PM

I think if we are looking at alternative assessment a good idea to begin with what @bhrbahar mentioned - real tasks - self assesmnt #ELTchat

Marisa_C

2:23 PM

Do you think that learners should be involved in establishing criteria for assessment? #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:24 PM

@cuppa_coffee  #ELTchat Another question - is discrete item testing suitable for alternative assessment models?

bhrbahar

2:25 PM

@Marisa_C #eltchat Yes, because the learners become more aware of what they are expected to do and also it can reduce the test anxiety

esolcourses

2:25 PM

RT @Marisa_C: Do you think that learners should be involved in establishing criteria for assessment? #eltchat ] yes if possible, IMO

esolcourses

2:26 PM

RT @cuppa_coffee @Marisa_C @eltknowledge still need to verify result by teacher, peers or sample writing/speech #ELTchat think so, yes

Marisa_C

2:26 PM

RT @bhrbahar: @Marisa_C #eltchat Yes, because Ss become more aware of what they are expected to do and also it can reduce the test anxiety

Marisa_C

2:27 PM

@CotterHUE hi there! a very long time no see!!! welcome!  #eltchat

UNIRidiomas

2:27 PM

@CotterHUE @Marisa_C How do you do it? #eltchat

KatelendM

2:27 PM

I think if learners started with a framework  then it could work really well. But at first would need a lot of modelling. #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:27 PM

There is a kind of formality tho even in portfolio assessment #eltchat who selects samples of work to include - are they graded etc

cuppa_coffee

2:27 PM

@eltknowledge Council of Europe produce DVD showing samples at each CEFR band. Useful when standardising teacher assessment. #ELTchat

CotterHUE

2:27 PM

RT @Marisa_C: Do you think that learners should be involved in establishing criteria for assessment? #eltchat yes, but have never done so.

Marisa_C

2:28 PM

@KatelendM  #eltchat the younger the learners or lower the level all the more need for lots of modelling = fully agree

esolcourses

2:28 PM

RT @Marisa_C: There is a kind of formality tho even in portfolio assessment #eltchat who selects work to include - are they graded etc

eltknowledge

2:28 PM

RT @cuppa_coffee: Council of Europe produce DVD showing samples at each CEFR band. Useful when standardising teacher assessment. #ELTchat

cuppa_coffee

2:29 PM

@Marisa_C sure Second language learning requires knowledge as well as competency. Discrete test grammar, pron & vocabulary useful #eltchat

KatelendM

2:29 PM

if Ss help determine assessment criteria, that could be pulled from the SMART goals they establish first. #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:29 PM

Could this DVD for CEFR be shown to the Ss too? #eltchat

CotterHUE

2:29 PM

@Marisa_C thanks. Kids went to bed early for a change! #eltchat

eltknowledge

2:29 PM

I don't mean 2b pedantic but the word 'assessment' always strikes me as sthg formal. That's why I prefer 'testing' (as opp 2 tests) #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:29 PM

RT @eltknowledge: RT @cuppa_coffee: Council of Europe produce DVD showing samples at each CEFR band. Useful when standardising. #ELTchat

Marisa_C

2:30 PM

@cuppa_coffee  #eltchat good point - but since onus on INFORMAL assessment, don't u think best done thru holistic tasks?

esolcourses

2:30 PM

@Marisa_C agree.  Difficult to get around that tho as teachers are often required to produce evidence of achievement... #eltchat

CotterHUE

2:31 PM

RT @KatelendM: if Ss help determine assessment criteria, that could be pulled from the SMART goals they establish first. #eltchat

esolcourses

2:31 PM

@Marisa_C ... tho that's not to say that learners can't be involved in selecting work to demonstrate achievement #eltchat

CotterHUE

2:31 PM

@eltknowledge interesting. For me, "testing" has more negative connotations than "assessment." #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:31 PM

@esolcourses  #eltchat I know - school requirements often against this notion - big battle worldwide at the mo

cuppa_coffee

2:32 PM

@Marisa_C why not. Some IELTS DVDs also have samples of different grades #ELTchat

Marisa_C

2:32 PM

For me there is a very great need for Ts to see testing/assessment as only a small part of a borader course/programme evaluation #eltchat

pjgallantry

2:33 PM

#ELTchat afternoon all

michaelegriffin

2:33 PM

MT @Marisa_C Do u think learners should be involved in establishing criteria for assessment? #eltchat>Yes! I also think it can take training

Marisa_C

2:34 PM

@Marisa_C  #eltchat welcome

CotterHUE

2:34 PM

@esolcourses: @Marisa_C agree.  re: evidence of achievement... Not only school,parents,companies, but many students want evidence. #eltchat

SimonGreenall

2:34 PM

@Marisa_C #eltchat The stakeholders in testin/assessment aren't only the students and teachers. They cn be parents, third party funders,MoE

Marisa_C

2:34 PM

cont... many Ts convinced that tests only form of evaluation (by school, microculrure, habit..) #eltchat

CotterHUE

2:35 PM

Tests can be a teaching tool too. Go over answers, teach through mistakes, expand on important points. #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:35 PM

RT @esolcourses: @Marisa_C  agree. You could say the same thing about education generally #eltchat > Indeed!

esolcourses

2:35 PM

@Marisa_C  agree. You could say the same thing about education generally #eltchat

SimonGreenall

2:35 PM

@CotterHUE #eltchat Yes, agree.

pjgallantry

2:35 PM

#ELTchat how often do you test/assess?

pjgallantry

2:36 PM

@SimonGreenall @marisa_c totally agree -FE in UK for example, needs results or it doesn't get funding = test-heavy culture #ELTchat

prese1

2:37 PM

@pjgallantry @SimonGreenall @marisa_c same here #eltchat

msoskil

2:37 PM

@CotterHUE Yes. But, as formative assssmnts go tests rarely give kids the most feedback for the time it takes. There's better ways. #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:37 PM

@pjgallantry  #ELTchat test happy too

Marisa_C

2:38 PM

Personally not against formal testingbut see it only as a small part of the larger framework of diff ways of evaluating Ss T & crse #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:39 PM

But think of formal testing as a way of confirming informal assessments - which we also do da-to-day as Ts - let's not forget that #eltchat

CotterHUE

2:39 PM

@pjgallantry test at end of 1month but test is tool for review and Ss receive one-to-one feedback on whole course+work #eltchat

cuppa_coffee

2:39 PM

@Marisa_C @pjgallantry but well designed test can cause positive backwash too #ELTchat

pjgallantry

2:39 PM

#ELTchat problem with tests can be that they warp the curriculum, and push things too fast- because of exam timetable -not beneficial

cuppa_coffee

2:40 PM

@msoskil @CotterHUE Good point. Single most important thing teacher can do to help progress is detailed evaluative feedback #ELTchat

pjgallantry

2:40 PM

@cuppa_coffee @marisa_c true, but the key is well-designed - and well -timed! #ELTchat

Marisa_C

2:41 PM

How about informal one-to-one tutorials as a way of ongoing informal evaluation - anyone tried them? #eltchat - based on clear criteria tho

esolcourses

2:41 PM

RT @pjgallantry: #ELTchat problem with tests can be that they warp the curriculum, and push things too fast- because of exam timetable - ...

esolcourses

2:41 PM

RT @pjgallantry: @cuppa_coffee @marisa_c true, but the key is well-designed - and well -timed! #ELTchat ] agree

pjgallantry

2:41 PM

@CotterHUE working in FE we have whole raft of formative and summarise assessments :p #ELTchat

cuppa_coffee

2:42 PM

@Marisa_C nice idea! Formal test = validation tool of informal test #ELTchat

touqo

2:42 PM

Isn't time in the classroom kind of wasted if it is spent on being quiet and doing tests? #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:43 PM

@touqo  #eltchat very hard to say what is really a waste of time in the classroom

BobK99

2:43 PM

@Marisa_C  #eltchat Maybe that explains the relative calm this week - ppp have just said 'I don't do fml testing', and given 12.00 a miss:-?

pjgallantry

2:43 PM

#ELTchat some tests are designed with teacher/tester/organisation in mind, NOT the students - how is validity affected?

pjgallantry

2:44 PM

@Marisa_C @touqo a game of football? :) #ELTchat

touqo

2:44 PM

@Marisa_C of course it depends. But sts are together in the classroom. Should do something together instead of alone? #eltchat

esolcourses

2:44 PM

@Marisa_C I've used informal one-to-one tutorials with adult learners to assess progress, tweak goals, etc. Worked well mostly, IME #eltchat

SimonGreenall

2:44 PM

@Marisa_C @touqo #eltchat Yes, and if tests are essential for other purposes, it's not really a waste of time.

Marisa_C

2:44 PM

@BobK99 you could be right - we have adult classes for our CELTAs that we don't test at all - they have just asked for a test  #eltchat

CotterHUE

2:45 PM

@touqo: time wasted being quiet and doing tests? devils advocate: how about tests as extrinsic motivation to balance? #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:45 PM

@pjgallantry  #ELTchat hours of fun on the board with grammar rules and ss with glazed eyes? is that useful time i wonder

Marisa_C

2:46 PM

....#ELTchat and I allowed collaboartion - they said "we do everything in groups' ... What do you think happened?

Marisa_C

2:46 PM

I have mentioned this incident in another chat but may be worth repeating:  group testing - my Ss complained abt indiv tests...cont #ELTchat

pjgallantry

2:46 PM

#ELTchat problem can be this:what is the test testing?How we use language, how we use a particular Language point, or problem-solving skill?

pjgallantry

2:47 PM

@Marisa_C of course not productive....question is, how do you objectively test spontaneous language? #ELTchat

prese1

2:47 PM

@Marisa_C what happened?#eltchat

touqo

2:47 PM

@CotterHUE but you could do tests anywhere. In the classroom students are together. Give them tests which presuppose groupwork? #eltchat

prese1

2:47 PM

@Marisa_C group testing ...sounds interesting #eltchat

BobK99

2:48 PM

RT @pjgallantry: @Marisa_C of course not productive....question is, how do you objectively test spontaneous language? #ELTchat >Good qstn!

Marisa_C

2:48 PM

@touqo  #eltchat indeed - outcomes/.output can be collected from any poitnt - noted - recorded etc

cuppa_coffee

2:48 PM

@touqo @Marisa_C If they are learning then fine with me. Talking together does not equal learning. Testing is a learning tool #ELTchat

SimonGreenall

2:49 PM

@pjgallantry @Marisa_C #eltchat But it's not possible to test spontaneoous l objectively. It is possible to do so with validity.

Marisa_C

2:49 PM

@pjgallantry  #ELTchat well... must point out that lack of objectivity in assessing productive skills holistically will always be an issue

pjgallantry

2:50 PM

@Marisa_C agree entirely...one issue with testing is if you have the skill of knowing how to pass a test, you'll pass...!.....#ELTchat

touqo

2:50 PM

I think in the future you can do individual tests anywhere. 1) tech can enable remote monitoring; 2) cheating is less of an issue. #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:50 PM

That's why assessors are regularly standardized - a discipline that would be v useful to Ts as well #eltchat

CotterHUE

2:51 PM

@touqo fair point. Take home test would achieve same goal. Blackboard or other online tool for Ss to work at home, same motivator. #eltchat

prese1

2:52 PM

@CotterHUE @touqo  how many adult students would hand in a completed test? I wonder #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:52 PM

RT @prese1: @Marisa_C what happened?#eltchat > the Ss' results after working in grps showed their diff levels of ability

Marisa_C

2:53 PM

@pjgallantry test adrenalin levels :-)  #ELTchat

cuppa_coffee

2:53 PM

@touqo great for discrete test items but what about production, speaking, fluency? Still value in classroom based testing #ELTchat

touqo

2:54 PM

@cuppa_coffee good point. There are some things requiring F2F with the teacher. #eltchat

esolcourses

2:54 PM

RT @CotterHUE: RT @pjgallantry: #ELTchat all testing does is demonstrate learners ability to pass tests... OR some Ss awful at tests yet ...

Marisa_C

2:54 PM

@CotterHUE  #ELTchat very true - many just bad test takers

BobK99

2:54 PM

@pjgallantry  #ELTchat 'learner's ability to pass tests' - I'm a case in point: 50+ years of sterile exam-passing!

CotterHUE

2:54 PM

RT @pjgallantry: #ELTchat all testing does is demonstrate learners ability to pass tests... OR some Ss awful at tests yet know the material.

Marisa_C

2:56 PM

About young learners - do you believe that formal testing suited for that age group? #Eltchat

SimonGreenall

2:56 PM

@pjgallantry #eltchat Wot is going on in your tests? Do you play Ride of the Valkyries too? :)

cuppa_coffee

2:56 PM

@CotterHUE @pjgallantry hence @Marisa_C desire to elevate more informal test as central to evaluation #ELTchat

CotterHUE

2:56 PM

@prese1 Why are they learning a language? Are they hobbyists? Do they need English? Probably less of the former&more of the latter. #eltchat

pjgallantry

2:57 PM

@SimonGreenall yes, and I bomb them with napalm. Keeps them on their toes ;) #ELTchat

cuppa_coffee

2:57 PM

@touqo I have assessed speaking by recorded video. was very useful :-) #ELTchat

Marisa_C

2:57 PM

@SimonGreenall @pjgallantry  #eltchat my affective filter hitting RED!!!!  #ELTchat

Marisa_C

2:58 PM

@SimonGreenall  #eltchat lol.... it's crippling that wot!

SimonGreenall

2:58 PM

@pjgallantry #eltchat OKaaay. Is that formative or summative? :)

Marisa_C

2:59 PM

Question abt young learners not really addressed in this #ELTchat - any last thoughts before we wrap up?

CotterHUE

3:00 PM

@cuppa_coffee: @touqo I have assessed speaking by recorded video. was very useful :-) #ELTchat Were Ss more nervous with this assessment?

pjgallantry

3:00 PM

#ELTchat thanks for the chat - short but sweet, but always informative. Have to go - preparing a class for an, er, exam....

cuppa_coffee

3:00 PM

@Marisa_C @SimonGreenall test taking ability itself is useful life skill too remember #ELTchat

bhrbahar

3:00 PM

@Marisa_C  #eltchat Actually no,I believe,they can be more productive when Ss feel relaxed.Sometimes they dont even know the meaning of test

prese1

3:00 PM

@Marisa_C no...but parents expect feedback on how their kids are doing. School system does formal testing. #eltchat

Marisa_C

3:01 PM

@cuppa_coffee that;s what official exmaining bodies would have us believe i think.... #ELTchat

bhrbahar

3:02 PM

@Marisa_C #Eltchat Once one of my successful Ss was too anxious, was crying cause she thought IFshe makes a mistake,I'll not love heranymore

BobK99

3:02 PM

mT @SimonGreenall: @pjgallantry #eltchat... formative or summative? :) > 'summary' (as in 'summary execn', not the sort @Marisa_C wants) ;)

cuppa_coffee

3:02 PM

@CotterHUE @touqo they did it in own time, own house, own PC so probably not. Video not shown to class. #ELTchat

Marisa_C

3:02 PM

Time to wrap up this #eltchat - thank you all for joining!!! Is there anyone who would volunteer to write up the summary???

touqo

3:03 PM

@cuppa_coffee sounds like a good approach! #eltchat @CotterHUE

SimonGreenall

3:03 PM

@Marisa_C Thank you Marisa for todays #eltchat Bye!

CotterHUE

3:04 PM

Great idea @cuppa_coffee:  @touqo they did it in own time, own house, own PC so probably not. Video not shown to class. #ELTchat

Marisa_C

3:04 PM

@bhrbahar  #Eltchat i too have witnessed such scenes

prese1

3:04 PM

@cuppa_coffee @CotterHUE @touqo nice idea #eltchat

esolcourses

3:04 PM

Thanks for another great #eltchat everyone! Got to dash, but hope to see you later if I can make it for chat number two :-)

Marisa_C

3:04 PM

@SimonGreenall thanks for joining dear Simon - always great to have you join  #eltchat :-)

ELTchat

3:05 PM

RT @Marisa_C: Repeating call for summary of this #eltchat - please contact me if you would be willing to write it up

Marisa_C

3:05 PM

Repeating call for summary of this #eltchat - please contact me if you would be willing to write it up

english247

3:05 PM

No Valentine? Never mind - there's always chocolate ;-) A quiz on how chocolate is made http://t.co/IzOpoQfZ #eltchat #esol #esl #engpls

BobK99

3:05 PM

#eltchat There goes the dinner gong! Bye, and thks all :)

bhrbahar

3:06 PM

@Marisa_C #ELTchat so especially for young Ls, it is better to use alternative assessment rather than formal testing.

prese1

3:06 PM

@CotterHUE sts need English for work. There's no point in giving them HW/test to do at home 'cause only 10% of the class will do it #eltchat

cuppa_coffee

3:07 PM

RT @Marisa_C: Repeating call for summary of this #eltchat - please contact me if you would be willing to write it up

Marisa_C

3:07 PM

@bhrbahar  #ELTchat fully agree

prese1

3:08 PM

Thanks for the chat #eltchat

ELTchat

3:08 PM

RT @Marisa_C: See you all later - we'll be talking about how to survive the DELTA #eltchat join us at 21 p.m. GMT

cuppa_coffee

3:09 PM

@prese1 @CotterHUE depends on motivation, reason to study, reward, etc. If assessment part of final grade they'll do it! #ELTchat

bhrbahar

3:10 PM

RT @Marisa_C: @bhrbahar  #Eltchat i too have witnessed such scenes

prese1

3:10 PM

@cuppa_coffee @CotterHUE true #eltchat

bhrbahar

3:11 PM

RT @Marisa_C: @bhrbahar  #ELTchat fully agree

username 

time

status

ELTchat

1:58 PM

1st #ELTchat topic today "Alternatives in assessment έΑΥ how to move away from the administration of formal tests in the classroom"

Marisa_C

2:01 PM

Ready to start #ELTchat? Our topic how to move away from formal assessment in the classroom  - who's present and keen to talk abt it?

4TheChallenge

2:02 PM

RT @Marisa_C: Ready to start #ELTchat? Our topic how to move away from formal assessment in the classroom  - who's present and keen to t ...

esolcourses

2:02 PM

RT @Marisa_C: Ready to start #ELTchat? Our topic how to move away from formal assessment in the classroom  - who's present and keen to t ...

Marisa_C

2:03 PM

@esolcourses Thank you for helping moderate this 1st #eltchat Sue - Shaun and James out of reach tofday

bhrbahar

2:04 PM

@Marisa_C #ELTchat I am ready =)

Marisa_C

2:04 PM

@esolcourses on the other hand, we might both go back to what we were doing before - no one else seems to be here for #ELTchat

SimonGreenall

2:05 PM

@Marisa_C @esolcourses Hello, Marisa and Sue! #eltchat I'm kind of here.

Marisa_C

2:05 PM

@prese1 @bhrbahar  #ELTchat hello and welcome :-)

esolcourses

2:05 PM

@Marisa_C happy to help our when I can! & LOL! Shall we make a start? :-) Portfolio based assessment is one alternative #eltchat

prese1

2:05 PM

hello everyone :) #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:06 PM

@SimonGreenall  #eltchat welcome Simon! kind of nice to have u kind of here :-)

Marisa_C

2:07 PM

Doesn't look as if we need to define 'formal' does it ? Tho quick for readers' sake, written, criterion based, graded...... #ELTchat

prese1

2:07 PM

@esolcourses @Marisa_C  Portfolio based learning? #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:08 PM

@prese1  #eltchat Yes, a selection of a student's production (written) and now (digitally possible) spoken as well #ELTchat

Marisa_C

2:09 PM

@prese1  #eltchat all

prese1

2:09 PM

@esolcourses @Marisa_C  age groups? #eltchat

esolcourses

2:09 PM

@prese1 @Marisa_C learners are assessed on a portfolio of work rather than taking an exam. Less pressure/more personalised #eltchat

BobK99

2:10 PM

RT @Marisa_C: @esolcourses ...no one else seems to be here for #ELTchat > au contraire - just late :)

Marisa_C

2:11 PM

Here is the EU website for portfolio assessment   http://t.co/XIhjvx3x #eltchat

eltknowledge

2:12 PM

Do we consider placement testing as formal assessment too? #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:12 PM

@eltknowledge @BobK99  #ELTchat oooohhh great! time to move beyond the basics then :-)

bhrbahar

2:12 PM

@esolcourses @prese1 @Marisa_C #ELTchat  they focus on communication, production not on right or wrong answers.

esolcourses

2:12 PM

RT @Marisa_C: Here is the EU website for portfolio assessment   http://t.co/XIhjvx3x #eltchat

eltknowledge

2:12 PM

Hi everyone! I'm here to join in on today's #ELTchat ! - Chia

esolcourses

2:13 PM

RT @eltknowledge: Do we consider placement testing as formal assessment too? #eltchat ] depends how it is done, perhaps?

Marisa_C

2:13 PM

Here is a guideline document on portfolios from Europa http://t.co/t7gucrY6 #eltchat for those who have not use portfolio assessments

eltknowledge

2:14 PM

@esolcourses @Marisa_C What are self placement models? Pardon the ignorance. #eltchat

cuppa_coffee

2:14 PM

@Marisa_C @esolcourses I'm checking in too... #ELTchat

Marisa_C

2:14 PM

RT @eltknowledge: Do we consider placement testing as formal assessment too? #eltchat > I think so - not self placement models tho

eltknowledge

2:15 PM

@Marisa_C That sounds interesting! How do learners do that? #eltchat

cuppa_coffee

2:15 PM

@chiasuan Can we not assign scores toassessed portfolios?? eg. CEFR grades by competency #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:15 PM

@eltknowledge  #eltchat the elarners decide on their level -

esolcourses

2:15 PM

@cuppa_coffee @Marisa_C good to see you here :-) #eltchat

BobK99

2:16 PM

#ELTchat The only formal assessment I was involved in didn't involve writing at all - it was for the National Open College Network -...1/2

prese1

2:16 PM

@Marisa_C is it my impression or does it need learner autonomy? #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:16 PM

@eltknowledge  #eltchat one example I have seen all in a large room and move from grp to grp

cuppa_coffee

2:17 PM

@eltknowledge @esolcourses @Marisa_C self-placement = self-evaluation often reliable predictor if future performance #ELTchat

eltknowledge

2:17 PM

@Marisa_C Fascinating. I'd love to see that in action. #eltchat

esolcourses

2:17 PM

@Marisa_C @eltknowledge  in theory, letting learners decide on level sounds good - not sure it would work in all contexts #eltchat

bhrbahar

2:17 PM

@Marisa_C @eltknowledge #ELTchat the learners can have opportunity to assess themselves and their peers as well.

chiasuan

2:17 PM

@cuppa_coffee I'd certainly be up 4that! Teachers continually assessment the progress of sts & giving CEFR scores. #eltchat

eltknowledge

2:18 PM

I have a huge problem with discrete item testing, but if the formal tests evaluate general competencies, I'm more 4 it. #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:18 PM

@esolcourses  #eltchat no self placement would certainly not work in all contexts - but is an example of informal

Marisa_C

2:19 PM

@eltknowledge  #eltchat A good activity for summer courses i think

cuppa_coffee

2:19 PM

@eltknowledge @Marisa_C could use CEFR or European Language Portfolio. Adapt to your context. #ELTchat

BobK99

2:20 PM

#ELTchat ...2/2 FWIW there web site is https://t.co/a6xALCmA - but it wasn't ELT (Pg, beginners, writing was just not on the agenda)

cuppa_coffee

2:21 PM

@bhrbahar @Marisa_C @eltknowledge could combine self & peer assessment in Maria's group activity #ELTchat

cuppa_coffee

2:22 PM

@esolcourses @Marisa_C @eltknowledge still need to verify result by teacher, peers or sample writing/speech #ELTchat

eltknowledge

2:22 PM

AS the CEFR are only descriptors, how do u train teachers to apply them appropriately when testing? #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:22 PM

I think if we are looking at alternative assessment a good idea to begin with what @bhrbahar mentioned - real tasks - self assesmnt #ELTchat

Marisa_C

2:23 PM

Do you think that learners should be involved in establishing criteria for assessment? #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:24 PM

@cuppa_coffee  #ELTchat Another question - is discrete item testing suitable for alternative assessment models?

bhrbahar

2:25 PM

@Marisa_C #eltchat Yes, because the learners become more aware of what they are expected to do and also it can reduce the test anxiety

esolcourses

2:25 PM

RT @Marisa_C: Do you think that learners should be involved in establishing criteria for assessment? #eltchat ] yes if possible, IMO

esolcourses

2:26 PM

RT @cuppa_coffee @Marisa_C @eltknowledge still need to verify result by teacher, peers or sample writing/speech #ELTchat think so, yes

Marisa_C

2:26 PM

RT @bhrbahar: @Marisa_C #eltchat Yes, because Ss become more aware of what they are expected to do and also it can reduce the test anxiety

Marisa_C

2:27 PM

@CotterHUE hi there! a very long time no see!!! welcome!  #eltchat

UNIRidiomas

2:27 PM

@CotterHUE @Marisa_C How do you do it? #eltchat

KatelendM

2:27 PM

I think if learners started with a framework  then it could work really well. But at first would need a lot of modelling. #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:27 PM

There is a kind of formality tho even in portfolio assessment #eltchat who selects samples of work to include - are they graded etc

cuppa_coffee

2:27 PM

@eltknowledge Council of Europe produce DVD showing samples at each CEFR band. Useful when standardising teacher assessment. #ELTchat

CotterHUE

2:27 PM

RT @Marisa_C: Do you think that learners should be involved in establishing criteria for assessment? #eltchat yes, but have never done so.

Marisa_C

2:28 PM

@KatelendM  #eltchat the younger the learners or lower the level all the more need for lots of modelling = fully agree

esolcourses

2:28 PM

RT @Marisa_C: There is a kind of formality tho even in portfolio assessment #eltchat who selects work to include - are they graded etc

eltknowledge

2:28 PM

RT @cuppa_coffee: Council of Europe produce DVD showing samples at each CEFR band. Useful when standardising teacher assessment. #ELTchat

cuppa_coffee

2:29 PM

@Marisa_C sure Second language learning requires knowledge as well as competency. Discrete test grammar, pron & vocabulary useful #eltchat

KatelendM

2:29 PM

if Ss help determine assessment criteria, that could be pulled from the SMART goals they establish first. #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:29 PM

Could this DVD for CEFR be shown to the Ss too? #eltchat

CotterHUE

2:29 PM

@Marisa_C thanks. Kids went to bed early for a change! #eltchat

eltknowledge

2:29 PM

I don't mean 2b pedantic but the word 'assessment' always strikes me as sthg formal. That's why I prefer 'testing' (as opp 2 tests) #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:29 PM

RT @eltknowledge: RT @cuppa_coffee: Council of Europe produce DVD showing samples at each CEFR band. Useful when standardising. #ELTchat

Marisa_C

2:30 PM

@cuppa_coffee  #eltchat good point - but since onus on INFORMAL assessment, don't u think best done thru holistic tasks?

esolcourses

2:30 PM

@Marisa_C agree.  Difficult to get around that tho as teachers are often required to produce evidence of achievement... #eltchat

CotterHUE

2:31 PM

RT @KatelendM: if Ss help determine assessment criteria, that could be pulled from the SMART goals they establish first. #eltchat

esolcourses

2:31 PM

@Marisa_C ... tho that's not to say that learners can't be involved in selecting work to demonstrate achievement #eltchat

CotterHUE

2:31 PM

@eltknowledge interesting. For me, "testing" has more negative connotations than "assessment." #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:31 PM

@esolcourses  #eltchat I know - school requirements often against this notion - big battle worldwide at the mo

cuppa_coffee

2:32 PM

@Marisa_C why not. Some IELTS DVDs also have samples of different grades #ELTchat

Marisa_C

2:32 PM

For me there is a very great need for Ts to see testing/assessment as only a small part of a borader course/programme evaluation #eltchat

pjgallantry

2:33 PM

#ELTchat afternoon all

michaelegriffin

2:33 PM

MT @Marisa_C Do u think learners should be involved in establishing criteria for assessment? #eltchat>Yes! I also think it can take training

Marisa_C

2:34 PM

@Marisa_C  #eltchat welcome

CotterHUE

2:34 PM

@esolcourses: @Marisa_C agree.  re: evidence of achievement... Not only school,parents,companies, but many students want evidence. #eltchat

SimonGreenall

2:34 PM

@Marisa_C #eltchat The stakeholders in testin/assessment aren't only the students and teachers. They cn be parents, third party funders,MoE

Marisa_C

2:34 PM

cont... many Ts convinced that tests only form of evaluation (by school, microculrure, habit..) #eltchat

CotterHUE

2:35 PM

Tests can be a teaching tool too. Go over answers, teach through mistakes, expand on important points. #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:35 PM

RT @esolcourses: @Marisa_C  agree. You could say the same thing about education generally #eltchat > Indeed!

esolcourses

2:35 PM

@Marisa_C  agree. You could say the same thing about education generally #eltchat

SimonGreenall

2:35 PM

@CotterHUE #eltchat Yes, agree.

pjgallantry

2:35 PM

#ELTchat how often do you test/assess?

pjgallantry

2:36 PM

@SimonGreenall @marisa_c totally agree -FE in UK for example, needs results or it doesn't get funding = test-heavy culture #ELTchat

prese1

2:37 PM

@pjgallantry @SimonGreenall @marisa_c same here #eltchat

msoskil

2:37 PM

@CotterHUE Yes. But, as formative assssmnts go tests rarely give kids the most feedback for the time it takes. There's better ways. #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:37 PM

@pjgallantry  #ELTchat test happy too

Marisa_C

2:38 PM

Personally not against formal testingbut see it only as a small part of the larger framework of diff ways of evaluating Ss T & crse #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:39 PM

But think of formal testing as a way of confirming informal assessments - which we also do da-to-day as Ts - let's not forget that #eltchat

CotterHUE

2:39 PM

@pjgallantry test at end of 1month but test is tool for review and Ss receive one-to-one feedback on whole course+work #eltchat

cuppa_coffee

2:39 PM

@Marisa_C @pjgallantry but well designed test can cause positive backwash too #ELTchat

pjgallantry

2:39 PM

#ELTchat problem with tests can be that they warp the curriculum, and push things too fast- because of exam timetable -not beneficial

cuppa_coffee

2:40 PM

@msoskil @CotterHUE Good point. Single most important thing teacher can do to help progress is detailed evaluative feedback #ELTchat

pjgallantry

2:40 PM

@cuppa_coffee @marisa_c true, but the key is well-designed - and well -timed! #ELTchat

Marisa_C

2:41 PM

How about informal one-to-one tutorials as a way of ongoing informal evaluation - anyone tried them? #eltchat - based on clear criteria tho

esolcourses

2:41 PM

RT @pjgallantry: #ELTchat problem with tests can be that they warp the curriculum, and push things too fast- because of exam timetable - ...

esolcourses

2:41 PM

RT @pjgallantry: @cuppa_coffee @marisa_c true, but the key is well-designed - and well -timed! #ELTchat ] agree

pjgallantry

2:41 PM

@CotterHUE working in FE we have whole raft of formative and summarise assessments :p #ELTchat

cuppa_coffee

2:42 PM

@Marisa_C nice idea! Formal test = validation tool of informal test #ELTchat

touqo

2:42 PM

Isn't time in the classroom kind of wasted if it is spent on being quiet and doing tests? #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:43 PM

@touqo  #eltchat very hard to say what is really a waste of time in the classroom

BobK99

2:43 PM

@Marisa_C  #eltchat Maybe that explains the relative calm this week - ppp have just said 'I don't do fml testing', and given 12.00 a miss:-?

pjgallantry

2:43 PM

#ELTchat some tests are designed with teacher/tester/organisation in mind, NOT the students - how is validity affected?

pjgallantry

2:44 PM

@Marisa_C @touqo a game of football? :) #ELTchat

touqo

2:44 PM

@Marisa_C of course it depends. But sts are together in the classroom. Should do something together instead of alone? #eltchat

esolcourses

2:44 PM

@Marisa_C I've used informal one-to-one tutorials with adult learners to assess progress, tweak goals, etc. Worked well mostly, IME #eltchat

SimonGreenall

2:44 PM

@Marisa_C @touqo #eltchat Yes, and if tests are essential for other purposes, it's not really a waste of time.

Marisa_C

2:44 PM

@BobK99 you could be right - we have adult classes for our CELTAs that we don't test at all - they have just asked for a test  #eltchat

CotterHUE

2:45 PM

@touqo: time wasted being quiet and doing tests? devils advocate: how about tests as extrinsic motivation to balance? #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:45 PM

@pjgallantry  #ELTchat hours of fun on the board with grammar rules and ss with glazed eyes? is that useful time i wonder

Marisa_C

2:46 PM

....#ELTchat and I allowed collaboartion - they said "we do everything in groups' ... What do you think happened?

Marisa_C

2:46 PM

I have mentioned this incident in another chat but may be worth repeating:  group testing - my Ss complained abt indiv tests...cont #ELTchat

pjgallantry

2:46 PM

#ELTchat problem can be this:what is the test testing?How we use language, how we use a particular Language point, or problem-solving skill?

pjgallantry

2:47 PM

@Marisa_C of course not productive....question is, how do you objectively test spontaneous language? #ELTchat

prese1

2:47 PM

@Marisa_C what happened?#eltchat

touqo

2:47 PM

@CotterHUE but you could do tests anywhere. In the classroom students are together. Give them tests which presuppose groupwork? #eltchat

prese1

2:47 PM

@Marisa_C group testing ...sounds interesting #eltchat

BobK99

2:48 PM

RT @pjgallantry: @Marisa_C of course not productive....question is, how do you objectively test spontaneous language? #ELTchat >Good qstn!

Marisa_C

2:48 PM

@touqo  #eltchat indeed - outcomes/.output can be collected from any poitnt - noted - recorded etc

cuppa_coffee

2:48 PM

@touqo @Marisa_C If they are learning then fine with me. Talking together does not equal learning. Testing is a learning tool #ELTchat

SimonGreenall

2:49 PM

@pjgallantry @Marisa_C #eltchat But it's not possible to test spontaneoous l objectively. It is possible to do so with validity.

Marisa_C

2:49 PM

@pjgallantry  #ELTchat well... must point out that lack of objectivity in assessing productive skills holistically will always be an issue

pjgallantry

2:50 PM

@Marisa_C agree entirely...one issue with testing is if you have the skill of knowing how to pass a test, you'll pass...!.....#ELTchat

touqo

2:50 PM

I think in the future you can do individual tests anywhere. 1) tech can enable remote monitoring; 2) cheating is less of an issue. #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:50 PM

That's why assessors are regularly standardized - a discipline that would be v useful to Ts as well #eltchat

CotterHUE

2:51 PM

@touqo fair point. Take home test would achieve same goal. Blackboard or other online tool for Ss to work at home, same motivator. #eltchat

prese1

2:52 PM

@CotterHUE @touqo  how many adult students would hand in a completed test? I wonder #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:52 PM

RT @prese1: @Marisa_C what happened?#eltchat > the Ss' results after working in grps showed their diff levels of ability

Marisa_C

2:53 PM

@pjgallantry test adrenalin levels :-)  #ELTchat

cuppa_coffee

2:53 PM

@touqo great for discrete test items but what about production, speaking, fluency? Still value in classroom based testing #ELTchat

touqo

2:54 PM

@cuppa_coffee good point. There are some things requiring F2F with the teacher. #eltchat

esolcourses

2:54 PM

RT @CotterHUE: RT @pjgallantry: #ELTchat all testing does is demonstrate learners ability to pass tests... OR some Ss awful at tests yet ...

Marisa_C

2:54 PM

@CotterHUE  #ELTchat very true - many just bad test takers

BobK99

2:54 PM

@pjgallantry  #ELTchat 'learner's ability to pass tests' - I'm a case in point: 50+ years of sterile exam-passing!

CotterHUE

2:54 PM

RT @pjgallantry: #ELTchat all testing does is demonstrate learners ability to pass tests... OR some Ss awful at tests yet know the material.

Marisa_C

2:56 PM

About young learners - do you believe that formal testing suited for that age group? #Eltchat

SimonGreenall

2:56 PM

@pjgallantry #eltchat Wot is going on in your tests? Do you play Ride of the Valkyries too? :)

cuppa_coffee

2:56 PM

@CotterHUE @pjgallantry hence @Marisa_C desire to elevate more informal test as central to evaluation #ELTchat

CotterHUE

2:56 PM

@prese1 Why are they learning a language? Are they hobbyists? Do they need English? Probably less of the former&more of the latter. #eltchat

pjgallantry

2:57 PM

@SimonGreenall yes, and I bomb them with napalm. Keeps them on their toes ;) #ELTchat

cuppa_coffee

2:57 PM

@touqo I have assessed speaking by recorded video. was very useful :-) #ELTchat

Marisa_C

2:57 PM

@SimonGreenall @pjgallantry  #eltchat my affective filter hitting RED!!!!  #ELTchat

Marisa_C

2:58 PM

@SimonGreenall  #eltchat lol.... it's crippling that wot!

SimonGreenall

2:58 PM

@pjgallantry #eltchat OKaaay. Is that formative or summative? :)

Marisa_C

2:59 PM

Question abt young learners not really addressed in this #ELTchat - any last thoughts before we wrap up?

CotterHUE

3:00 PM

@cuppa_coffee: @touqo I have assessed speaking by recorded video. was very useful :-) #ELTchat Were Ss more nervous with this assessment?

pjgallantry

3:00 PM

#ELTchat thanks for the chat - short but sweet, but always informative. Have to go - preparing a class for an, er, exam....

cuppa_coffee

3:00 PM

@Marisa_C @SimonGreenall test taking ability itself is useful life skill too remember #ELTchat

bhrbahar

3:00 PM

@Marisa_C  #eltchat Actually no,I believe,they can be more productive when Ss feel relaxed.Sometimes they dont even know the meaning of test

prese1

3:00 PM

@Marisa_C no...but parents expect feedback on how their kids are doing. School system does formal testing. #eltchat

Marisa_C

3:01 PM

@cuppa_coffee that;s what official exmaining bodies would have us believe i think.... #ELTchat

bhrbahar

3:02 PM

@Marisa_C #Eltchat Once one of my successful Ss was too anxious, was crying cause she thought IFshe makes a mistake,I'll not love heranymore

BobK99

3:02 PM

mT @SimonGreenall: @pjgallantry #eltchat... formative or summative? :) > 'summary' (as in 'summary execn', not the sort @Marisa_C wants) ;)

cuppa_coffee

3:02 PM

@CotterHUE @touqo they did it in own time, own house, own PC so probably not. Video not shown to class. #ELTchat

Marisa_C

3:02 PM

Time to wrap up this #eltchat - thank you all for joining!!! Is there anyone who would volunteer to write up the summary???

touqo

3:03 PM

@cuppa_coffee sounds like a good approach! #eltchat @CotterHUE

SimonGreenall

3:03 PM

@Marisa_C Thank you Marisa for todays #eltchat Bye!

CotterHUE

3:04 PM

Great idea @cuppa_coffee:  @touqo they did it in own time, own house, own PC so probably not. Video not shown to class. #ELTchat

Marisa_C

3:04 PM

@bhrbahar  #Eltchat i too have witnessed such scenes

prese1

3:04 PM

@cuppa_coffee @CotterHUE @touqo nice idea #eltchat

esolcourses

3:04 PM

Thanks for another great #eltchat everyone! Got to dash, but hope to see you later if I can make it for chat number two :-)

Marisa_C

3:04 PM

@SimonGreenall thanks for joining dear Simon - always great to have you join  #eltchat :-)

ELTchat

3:05 PM

RT @Marisa_C: Repeating call for summary of this #eltchat - please contact me if you would be willing to write it up

Marisa_C

3:05 PM

Repeating call for summary of this #eltchat - please contact me if you would be willing to write it up

english247

3:05 PM

No Valentine? Never mind - there's always chocolate ;-) A quiz on how chocolate is made http://t.co/IzOpoQfZ #eltchat #esol #esl #engpls

BobK99

3:05 PM

#eltchat There goes the dinner gong! Bye, and thks all :)

bhrbahar

3:06 PM

@Marisa_C #ELTchat so especially for young Ls, it is better to use alternative assessment rather than formal testing.

prese1

3:06 PM

@CotterHUE sts need English for work. There's no point in giving them HW/test to do at home 'cause only 10% of the class will do it #eltchat

cuppa_coffee

3:07 PM

RT @Marisa_C: Repeating call for summary of this #eltchat - please contact me if you would be willing to write it up

Marisa_C

3:07 PM

@bhrbahar  #ELTchat fully agree

prese1

3:08 PM

Thanks for the chat #eltchat

ELTchat

3:08 PM

RT @Marisa_C: See you all later - we'll be talking about how to survive the DELTA #eltchat join us at 21 p.m. GMT

cuppa_coffee

3:09 PM

@prese1 @CotterHUE depends on motivation, reason to study, reward, etc. If assessment part of final grade they'll do it! #ELTchat

bhrbahar

3:10 PM

RT @Marisa_C: @bhrbahar  #Eltchat i too have witnessed such scenes

prese1

3:10 PM

@cuppa_coffee @CotterHUE true #eltchat

bhrbahar

3:11 PM

RT @Marisa_C: @bhrbahar  #ELTchat fully agree