This is the transcript of #eltchat from 07.011.2012 on the topic of Do you use the phonemic chart with students. Why/why not and how?
| username | time | status |
| teflerinha | 12:01 PM | #eltchat Ready for Do you use the phonemic chart with students. Why/why not and how? (and finding out how to guest moderate!) |
| theteacherjames | 12:01 PM | It's time for another #eltchat. Joining me today is guest moderator @teflerinha. |
| teflgeek | 12:02 PM | Morning all #eltchat |
| theteacherjames | 12:02 PM | Our topic is "Do you use the phonemic chart with students. Why/why not, and how?" #eltchat |
| worldteacher | 12:03 PM | I'll kick off by saying I'm a huge fan of the phonemic chart & use it in every lesson. #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:03 PM | #eltchat Should we start with the first part? Do you use the phonemic chart with students? Why/why not? |
| teflgeek | 12:04 PM | @bnleez sometimes the chart can help learners visualise the difference between sounds though #eltchat |
| worldteacher | 12:04 PM | We use the English File Sound Chart & have it on the wall in every classroom as a constant point of reference. #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:04 PM | @bnleez #eltchat Why don't you use the chart? (not saying you should....) |
| theteacherjames | 12:04 PM | @bnleez Why don't you use it? #eltchat |
| KerrCarolyn | 12:04 PM | #eltchat I try! I use the symbols for 'tricky' sounds and introduce them one by one |
| bnleez | 12:04 PM | I don't use a phonemic chart, just model pronunciation as necessary. #eltchat |
| teflgeek | 12:04 PM | we have a phonemic chart on the wall of every classroom, though I prob don't use it as much as I should #eltchat |
| theteacherjames | 12:04 PM | RT @teflerinha: #eltchat Should we start with the first part? Do you use the phonemic chart with students? Why/why not? |
| teflerinha | 12:04 PM | @worldteacher #eltchat Every lesson, wow! I like it, but... What do you do with it? |
| bnleez | 12:05 PM | Since ELLs can find online dictionaries these days, most words come with an audio file with the pronunciation. #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:05 PM | @KerrCarolyn #eltchat So systematic, not just ad hoc? |
| KerrCarolyn | 12:05 PM | #eltchat Agree with @bnleez - its good to show the sound difference even when the spelling is the same TH TH |
| BobK99 | 12:05 PM | @Shaunwilden #eltchat I'd love to stay - can't see how anyone can teach English effectively WITHOUT IPA. But I have to go. :) |
| teflerinha | 12:05 PM | @teflgeek @bnleez #eltchat I like the way the chart (Underhill's anyway) can show the mouth position |
| teflerinha | 12:06 PM | @bnleez True, so less need to interpret symbols..but still a way of recording it if they write words down? #eltchat |
| michaelegriffin | 12:06 PM | #ELTchat non-phonemic chart user here. Why not? time/Ss don't know it**/other focuses/confidence lack |
| worldteacher | 12:06 PM | RT @BobK99: @Shaunwilden #eltchat I'd love to stay - can't see how anyone can teach English effectively WITHOUT IPA. But I have to go. :) |
| yya2 | 12:06 PM | LearnEnglish Apps | LearnEnglish | British Council | @scoopit http://t.co/iQ5HBsUW #eltchat |
| worldteacher | 12:06 PM | Also have the individual symbols as flashcards & individual sound posters for sts to add to. #eltchat |
| teflgeek | 12:07 PM | @bnleez which is fine for those who (a) have constant access to computer (b) can differentiate between sounds clearly #eltchat - BUT... |
| teflerinha | 12:07 PM | @michaelegriffin BTW Is that your confience lack, or the ss? #eltchat |
| theteacherjames | 12:07 PM | @BobK99 Pity, I'd love to discuss that statement with you!! #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:07 PM | @michaelegriffin #eltchat You could..but actually most symbols fairly self evident I find |
| jo_cummins | 12:07 PM | I try to use it as much as I can, depending on the class #eltchat |
| Julian_LEnfant | 12:08 PM | #eltchat I use the phonemic chart with all learners of all ages. An excellent resource & important for learner autonomy. |
| michaelegriffin | 12:08 PM | #ELTchat @teflerinha I meant mine but I could say students might be a bit resistant (not really sure to be honest!) |
| worldteacher | 12:08 PM | It makes life so much easier! I'm with @BobK99 !! #eltchat |
| teflgeek | 12:08 PM | @bnleez not all learners work that way and the phonemic chart can help there #eltchat |
| KerrCarolyn | 12:09 PM | @michaelegriffin #eltchat I use a little app to train myself on the chart. Makes better use of the Metro than reading the free newspapers |
| teflgeek | 12:09 PM | @theteacherjames what about lifelong learning? #eltchat |
| jo_cummins | 12:09 PM | @teflerinha @michaelegriffin as a new teacher I found the IPA really intimidating, so I wonder how students feel sometimes! #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:09 PM | RT @theteacherjames: Here's a cheeky question: Don't sts have enough to learn without them having to pick up some symbols they'll never ... |
| teflerinha | 12:09 PM | @michaelegriffin #eltchat Agree that it can be overwhelming for ss- and worse for ss without roman alphabet perhaps? |
| theteacherjames | 12:09 PM | Here's a cheeky question: Don't sts have enough to learn without them having to pick up some symbols they'll never use again? #eltchat |
| worldteacher | 12:09 PM | RT @Julian_LEnfant: #eltchat I use the phonemic chart with all learners of all ages. An excellent resource & important for learner autonomy. |
| KerrCarolyn | 12:10 PM | @worldteacher And it needs demystifying!! #eltchat |
| Julian_LEnfant | 12:10 PM | #eltchat Which chart do you use for American English. The English File books are great, but there's also Celce-Murcia Brinton & Goodwin's? |
| jo_cummins | 12:10 PM | @worldteacher @BobK99 it does once you get to grips with it but I think that that can be tricky at first. #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:10 PM | RT @KerrCarolyn: @michaelegriffin #eltchat I use a little app to train myself on the chart. Makes better use of the Metro than reading t ... |
| worldteacher | 12:10 PM | @theteacherjames But they do use it - all the time - it empowers them - demystifies Eng pron! #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:10 PM | RT @teflgeek: @theteacherjames if trained in the chart, learners can get word outside classroom, note down pron and practice later #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:10 PM | @jo_cummins @michaelegriffin Yes, think that's a really fair point. I'd start with the schwa and maybe a few others #eltchat |
| teflgeek | 12:10 PM | @theteacherjames if trained in the chart, learners can get word outside classroom, note down pron and practice later #eltchat |
| jo_cummins | 12:11 PM | @Julian_LEnfant I agree with learner autonomy , I feel like I'm giving them something really useful when I introduce it! #eltchat |
| jo_cummins | 12:11 PM | @Julian_LEnfant I agree with learner autonomy , I feel like I'm giving them something really useful when I introduce it! #eltchat |
| prese1 | 12:11 PM | I use it with adults but hardly use the symbols with YL #eltchat |
| worldteacher | 12:11 PM | @jo_cummins Like everything! But worth persevering with IMO #eltchat |
| michaelegriffin | 12:11 PM | @teflerinha Interestingly my CELTA tutor told me its no problem for Korean/Japanese Ss to pick up easily because new scripts r easy #ELTchat |
| teflerinha | 12:11 PM | @Julian_LEnfant #eltchat Good question about American English- confess quite ignorant on this #eltchat |
| theteacherjames | 12:11 PM | @teflgeek Sounds like a lot of training for something that most sts won't really use, to me... #eltchat |
| Julian_LEnfant | 12:11 PM | RT @teflgeek: @theteacherjames if trained in the chart, learners can get word outside classroom, note down pron and practice later #eltchat |
| GaryJones01 | 12:11 PM | @teflerinha No, because for me the chart has to be used extensively or not at all. I use rhyming words for sounds #eltchat |
| worldteacher | 12:12 PM | @KerrCarolyn Yes, it does! But my sts love the fact that there are 'only' 44 sounds &, once they know them, they have the key!! #eltchat |
| KerrCarolyn | 12:12 PM | @teflerinha #eltchat Or does it have to be used consistently or not at all? |
| theteacherjames | 12:12 PM | @teflgeek Practice always trumps theory!! #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:12 PM | RT @prese1: I use it with adults but hardly use the symbols with YL #eltchat |
| KerrCarolyn | 12:12 PM | @theteacherjames #eltchat depends on the SS - I have a 15yr old who's objective is "to have perfect pronunciation". He uses it! |
| teflerinha | 12:12 PM | @GaryJones01 Why does chart have to be used extensively or not at all? #eltchat I often just use a handful of symbols (e.g. schwa) |
| teflgeek | 12:12 PM | @theteacherjames well to be honest, my integration of chart use is a bit haphazard... but in theory...? #eltchat |
| theteacherjames | 12:12 PM | @worldteacher I'm not really convinced that they will use it, I've never seen anything to indicate that with my sts. #eltchat |
| EBEFL | 12:12 PM | phonetic typewriter which might come in handy for this chat or worksheets. I can't distinguish /ʊ/ and /ʌ/ http://t.co/zjPIq1TJ #eltchat |
| teflgeek | 12:13 PM | @theteacherjames but I don't expect learners to know it all #eltchat |
| teflgeek | 12:13 PM | @theteacherjames I do use it, usually to highlight the difference between what the learners are saying and the target pron. #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:13 PM | @michaelegriffin Interesting- suppose they have already succeeded with new scripts. Also wonder if precision is cultural tendency? #eltchat |
| theteacherjames | 12:13 PM | @KerrCarolyn fair enough, but I don't think that's a reflection of most sts objectives. #eltchat |
| jo_cummins | 12:13 PM | @worldteacher yes, definitely worth the effort #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:14 PM | @theteacherjames @KerrCarolyn Most ss don't want perfection, but do struggle LOT w/ connected speech- IPA not just abt indiv sounds #eltchat |
| andyscott55 | 12:14 PM | #eltchat we have an interactive phonemic chart on our blog ... the learners love it http://t.co/yabYzHsD |
| jo_cummins | 12:14 PM | @theteacherjames @worldteacher it does depend on the Sts, and how it is taught #eltchat |
| michaelegriffin | 12:14 PM | @teflerinha @jo_cummins #eltchat I think awareness theres a thing called the schwa n knowing when it comes is HUGE(whole chart not so much) |
| worldteacher | 12:14 PM | @theteacherjames I have the opposite experience - mine like having a tool they can use to 'de-code' Eng. pron. #eltchat |
| theteacherjames | 12:14 PM | RT @GaryJones01: @teflerinha No, because for me the chart has to be used extensively or not at all. I use rhyming words for sounds #eltchat |
| KerrCarolyn | 12:14 PM | @theteacherjames #eltchat What if your school teacher has given you a poor model and that's what you practice? |
| EBEFL | 12:15 PM | /dɪpðɒŋz ɑ: hɑ:d/ #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:15 PM | @michaelegriffin @jo_cummins Different sounds cause probs for diff learners (though schwa universal) #eltchat |
| prese1 | 12:15 PM | RT @andyscott55: #eltchat we have an interactive phonemic chart on our blog ... the learners love it http://t.co/yabYzHsD |
| michaelegriffin | 12:15 PM | @teflerinha Haha. this is what i was told then marched into Japanese uni class when not 1 S had ever heard of it! #ELTchat #confidencekiller |
| KerrCarolyn | 12:15 PM | @theteacherjames #eltchat Teaching in France, 'improved pronunciation' is one of the most common objectives |
| teflerinha | 12:15 PM | RT @andyscott55: #eltchat we have an interactive phonemic chart on our blog ... the learners love it http://t.co/yabYzHsD |
| teflerinha | 12:16 PM | @jo_cummins @michaelegriffin Do you mean you or students? Think it's helpful if teachers know it so it's there when needed #eltchat |
| KerrCarolyn | 12:16 PM | @theteacherjames I define it as a model that leaves the learner in the zone of incomprehensibility #eltchat |
| jo_cummins | 12:16 PM | @michaelegriffin @teflerinha I think awaremess is the key really, you don't need to be able to recite the whole chart #eltchat |
| worldteacher | 12:16 PM | @jo_cummins @theteacherjames Absolutely agree. We've found that it works with our sts so train all new teachers in its use. #eltchat |
| jo_psarra | 12:16 PM | RT @andyscott55: #eltchat we have an interactive phonemic chart on our blog ... the learners love it http://t.co/yabYzHsD |
| teflerinha | 12:16 PM | @michaelegriffin #eltchat Yes, I've had that kind of experience too! |
| theteacherjames | 12:16 PM | @KerrCarolyn It's very hard to define a 'poor model', my feeling is that is a euphemism for 'different to what I want'. #eltchat |
| prese1 | 12:17 PM | @teflerinha lol #eltchat |
| michaelegriffin | 12:17 PM | RT @jo_cummins I think awaremess is the key really, you don't need to be able to recite the whole chart #eltchat | fully agree! |
| worldteacher | 12:17 PM | @prese1 If I admit that I do, does that make me a geek? :-) #eltchat |
| EBEFL | 12:17 PM | a new script shouldn't be too hard. Japanese and Chinese know thousands of characters. And most consonants are the same. #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:17 PM | @prese1 #eltchat Yes #smug |
| theteacherjames | 12:17 PM | @KerrCarolyn Is that because they need better pronunciation, or think they need better pronunciation? #eltchat |
| prese1 | 12:17 PM | does anyone know the chart by heart? I don't #eltchat |
| theteacherjames | 12:18 PM | @EBEFL Do you know of any research into the effectiveness of the phonetic system? #eltchat |
| jo_cummins | 12:18 PM | @teflerinha @michaelegriffin I mean Sts really, but also new teachers can learn it slowly I think #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:18 PM | #eltchat Can I bring in connected speech again- not just about indiv sounds being perfect- best way to show what happens to sounds in speech |
| theteacherjames | 12:18 PM | RT @EBEFL: phonetic typewriter which might come in handy for this chat or worksheets. I can't distinguish /ʊ/ and /ʌ/ http://t.co/zjPIq1 ... |
| teflerinha | 12:19 PM | @Julian_LEnfant @theteacherjames @teflgeek Don't forget #eltchat hashtag |
| michaelegriffin | 12:19 PM | @prese1 @teflerinha I have learned it at least 4 times. #humblebrag #ELTchat |
| teflerinha | 12:19 PM | @jo_cummins @michaelegriffin Oh yes, I'd agree with that. #eltchat |
| Marisa_C | 12:20 PM | Hi all on #ELTchat - apololies to be late - just finished my delta sesh - what talking abt? |
| Julian_LEnfant | 12:20 PM | #eltchat When teaching YLs we'd use it as a secret code; Lee the Lion and Sid the Snake liked certain types of words. (Ah, my Polish days!) |
| EBEFL | 12:20 PM | @theteacherjames actually no. The only research I have seen relevant is that "stress-timing" is apparently a myth! #eltchat |
| jo_cummins | 12:20 PM | @teflerinha absolutely, and good for the physicality of the sounds and how they work together #eltchat |
| teflgeek | 12:20 PM | @Julian_LEnfant @theteacherjames as in more able to develop on their own? #eltchat |
| theteacherjames | 12:20 PM | RT @Julian_LEnfant: I've found students who have followed courses w/pron more resourceful than new students entering the school. #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:20 PM | @michaelegriffin @prese1 LOL Only way is to use it I think :) #eltchat |
| KerrCarolyn | 12:20 PM | @theteacherjames #eltchat For BE 'incomprehensible' presentations don't achieve the outcome they need. SS need to deliver the message |
| teflerinha | 12:21 PM | RT @teflerinha: @Marisa_C Phonemic chart- do you use it why/why not and How #eltchat |
| theteacherjames | 12:21 PM | RT @EBEFL: @theteacherjames actually no. The only research I have seen relevant is that "stress-timing" is apparently a myth! #eltchat |
| theteacherjames | 12:21 PM | @KerrCarolyn Absolutely, but this isn't the only way to teach pronunciation. #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:21 PM | @Julian_LEnfant #eltchat Similar nostalgia :) |
| teflerinha | 12:22 PM | @Marisa_C #eltchat At mo. just general- but I like his because of showing mouth position |
| theteacherjames | 12:22 PM | RT @KerrCarolyn: @theteacherjames Agree - but it is one of the tools. What else works for recognizing funny phonics? #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:22 PM | @theteacherjames @KerrCarolyn No, it's just a tool in the toolkit #eltchat |
| Marisa_C | 12:22 PM | @teflerinha Thanks Rachael! WHich chart Adrian Underhills' ??? #eltchat |
| theteacherjames | 12:22 PM | @EBEFL Interesting. Would love to read a blog post on that! #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:23 PM | @michaelegriffin #eltchat Say more... |
| michaelegriffin | 12:23 PM | Just re-reading #ELTchat summary from Feb on similar topic and commenter attacks IPA for non-latin based L1s http://t.co/sEtUpZfe |
| teflerinha | 12:23 PM | @theteacherjames @KerrCarolyn Diagrams showing tongue position etc, mirrors, bits of paper- voiced/unvoiced #eltchat |
| prese1 | 12:23 PM | @Marisa_C @teflerinha I like the ones that come in the English File books #eltchat |
| michaelegriffin | 12:24 PM | @teflerinha Probably easier to check the 1st comment there on the blog. (Not my opinion, mind) #ELTchat |
| KerrCarolyn | 12:24 PM | @teflerinha @theteacherjames #eltchat. Agree. But to help them when the T is not there? |
| harrisonmike | 12:24 PM | #eltchat IMO the phonemic alphabet is useful to highlight problem sounds. Then you compartmentalise problems and drill if sts make errors |
| Marisa_C | 12:25 PM | RT @ManosSY: @prese1 @Marisa_C #ELTchat I use those too, English File / Underhill's 1 hr vid also gives loads of ideas to use in class |
| KerrCarolyn | 12:25 PM | @teflerinha @theteacherjames #eltchat Or could it be that good for those with specific 'intelligences' i.e. can connect aural to visual |
| theteacherjames | 12:25 PM | @KerrCarolyn Good question. I've never been comfortable with the phonemic way, but not sure I have an alternative (don't forget #eltchat!) |
| teflerinha | 12:25 PM | @michaelegriffin #eltchat OK, will do, thanks |
| worldteacher | 12:25 PM | RT @prese1: @Marisa_C @teflerinha I like the English File ones #eltchat >Me too! Introduced whole pron course based on them! |
| teflerinha | 12:25 PM | #eltchat Time to discuss in more detail exactly HOW people use it, and perhaps which chart they use? |
| Julian_LEnfant | 12:26 PM | #eltchat Unfortunately,here many don't include integrate pron teaching & there's none of the classrooms have charts.Sth I'd like to address. |
| teflgeek | 12:26 PM | @michaelegriffin thought IPA chart was latin based but meant to be global? It has a list of "extensions" #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:26 PM | @KerrCarolyn @theteacherjames Never sure if I believe in multiple intelligences... #eltchat |
| Marisa_C | 12:26 PM | @worldteacher You mean the ones with the pictures ? #eltchat |
| michaelegriffin | 12:27 PM | @teflgeek Right...exactly. I just think that the thought was its too much to learn (too big a jump) if your L1 is very far away. #ELTChat |
| teflerinha | 12:27 PM | @Marisa_C @worldteacher #eltchat Personally not keen on pictures as ss may pronounce these words wrong anyway- but like BC chart with...1/1 |
| worldteacher | 12:27 PM | RT @Marisa_C: @worldteacher You mean the ones with the pictures ? #eltchat Yes - sts associate sound with word, picture & colour - memorable |
| teflgeek | 12:28 PM | @michaelegriffin I suppose - but you don't need full IPA chart, just those symbols related to target language (e.g. English) #eltchat |
| harrisonmike | 12:28 PM | #eltchat regarding sts with non latin based languages, I gave Urdu and Farsi spkrs a text transcribed to IPA and they started to work it out |
| theteacherjames | 12:28 PM | RT @teflerinha: #eltchat Time to discuss in more detail exactly HOW people use it, and perhaps which chart they use? |
| KerrCarolyn | 12:28 PM | @worldteacher @Marisa_C #eltchat . 11 Colour vowel sounds are great. I use the colors with kids and they love coloring words and poems |
| Marisa_C | 12:28 PM | Isolated practice or integrated practice #Eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:28 PM | @worldteacher @Marisa_C ...words with sound at beg, middle and end as you can click to hear these and it deals with allophones #eltchat 2/2 |
| jo_cummins | 12:29 PM | @teflerinha @Marisa_C @worldteacher I like the pictures, a good memory jogger! You can drill pic words #eltchat |
| worldteacher | 12:29 PM | @teflerinha Great for use at home or if you have tech in the classroom - otherwise I'll stick to paper charts & flashcards! #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:29 PM | @KerrCarolyn @worldteacher @Marisa_C #eltchat That sounds very silent way based? Could see that working well with YLs |
| theteacherjames | 12:30 PM | RT @harrisonmike: #eltchat regarding sts with non latin based languages, I gave Urdu and Farsi spkrs a text transcribed to IPA and they ... |
| prese1 | 12:30 PM | RT @jo_cummins: @teflerinha @Marisa_C @worldteacher I like the pictures, a good memory jogger! You can drill pic words #eltchat |
| worldteacher | 12:30 PM | RT @Marisa_C: Isolated practice or integrated practice #Eltchat >Both!! |
| teflgeek | 12:30 PM | sorry all #eltchat - going to have to duck out early today. see you next time. |
| teflerinha | 12:30 PM | @harrisonmike #eltchat Think can be real 'aha' moment for ss as they C how lang REALLY sounds instead of written version #connectedspeech |
| theteacherjames | 12:30 PM | @Julian_LEnfant Let's not confuse teaching pronunciation & using the chart. You can do the first without the latter... #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:31 PM | @worldteacher #eltchat They can work too, not a tech above all kind of teacher myself |
| worldteacher | 12:31 PM | RT @jo_cummins: @teflerinha @Marisa_C @worldteacher I like the pictures, a good memory jogger! You can drill pic words #eltchat >Absolutely! |
| michaelegriffin | 12:31 PM | @teflgeek Again, not my thoughts but i think the commenter here http://t.co/sEtUpZfe saying its 2 far from L1 and 2 much work #ELTchat |
| worldteacher | 12:31 PM | @KerrCarolyn @Marisa_C Great - this kind of exercise works well with my uni sts, too!! #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:31 PM | RT @worldteacher: RT @Marisa_C: Isolated practice or integrated practice #Eltchat >Both!! |
| EBEFL | 12:32 PM | phonetic chart, in case anyone is not sure http://t.co/gubUGJUR #eltchat |
| Marisa_C | 12:32 PM | @teflerinha which pronunciation chart do they mean any links so far? #eltchat |
| LavinaRuth | 12:32 PM | RT @theteacherjames: Here's a cheeky question: Don't sts have enough to learn without them having to pick up some symbols they'll never ... |
| theteacherjames | 12:33 PM | @worldteacher In lesson time, I'd say it's easier. For self study, you may have a point ;-) #eltchat |
| SueAnnan | 12:33 PM | Hi everyone. I use the phonemicchartwith all my classes. But I only work on the problem phonemes as required. #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:33 PM | @Marisa_C #eltchat Any links to charts you use, folks? This is Adrian Underhill's http://t.co/9DLswEMB |
| worldteacher | 12:33 PM | RT @teflerinha: @harrisonmike #eltchat Think can be real 'aha' moment for ss as they C how lang REALLY sounds instead of written version ... |
| worldteacher | 12:33 PM | @theteacherjames @Julian_LEnfant It's harder, though - isn't it?!! #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:34 PM | @mikeharrison was talking abt transcribing whole chunks 4 ss to read- think this can be gr8 for connected speech. Any1 else tried? #eltchat |
| theteacherjames | 12:34 PM | @Julian_LEnfant Yes, but it's not the only way. I teach pronunciation, but I don't use the chart. #eltchat |
| worldteacher | 12:34 PM | RT @Julian_LEnfant: @theteacherjames #eltchat Isn't the chart a tool for teaching pronunciation? > It is in my classroom! :-) |
| GaryJones01 | 12:34 PM | @teflerinha because it's a heck of a lot to learn and remember... #eltchat |
| phil3wade | 12:34 PM | @Marisa_C This is the most useful pron site I've found: http://t.co/O5oomhEP really helps for teaching HOW 2 make the counds. #eltchat |
| elawassell | 12:34 PM | Hi All - just popping in - during my short break.. |
| Julian_LEnfant | 12:34 PM | @theteacherjames #eltchat Isn't the chart a tool for teaching pronunciation? |
| theteacherjames | 12:35 PM | RT @phil3wade: @Marisa_C This is the most useful pron site I've found: http://t.co/O5oomhEP really helps for teaching HOW 2 make the cou ... |
| Julian_LEnfant | 12:35 PM | @theteacherjames #eltchat OK. But we're talking about the phonemic chart, which can be integrated when focusing on other pron features. |
| Marisa_C | 12:35 PM | RT @phil3wade: @Marisa_C This is the most useful pron site I've found: http://t.co/rEVY9w45 . #eltchat > love this site |
| theteacherjames | 12:35 PM | RT @elawassell: Hi All - just popping in - during my short break.. |
| michaelegriffin | 12:35 PM | RT @phil3wade: @Marisa_C This is the most useful pron site I've found: http://t.co/O5oomhEP really helps for teaching HOW 2 make the cou ... |
| elawassell | 12:36 PM | RT @teflerinha: @Marisa_C This is Adrian Underhills http://t.co/BlyUcOw7 <- <3 it! The sounds app http://t.co/kdqPrBam #ELTchat |
| teflerinha | 12:36 PM | @Marisa_C @phil3wade Thank you! #eltchat |
| Julian_LEnfant | 12:36 PM | @theteacherjames #eltchat Of course, it's not the only way. LIke everything, there are many ways. |
| michaelegriffin | 12:36 PM | #ELTchat at the risk of phonemic chart overload...here are 5 http://t.co/KGdpSdL5 |
| worldteacher | 12:36 PM | @teflerinha Yes - we use phonemic symbols for linked words - very useful. #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:36 PM | @GaryJones01 Not sure it's as difficult at it appears- consonants mainly the same. And for europeans many dipthongs are logical #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:37 PM | @harrisonmike #eltchat Thanks! |
| worldteacher | 12:37 PM | RT @Julian_LEnfant: @prese1 @Marisa_C @teflerinha Me too. There's an English File Pronunciation app for iPhone, too. #eltchat |
| harrisonmike | 12:37 PM | . @teflerinha this is the app I use: http://t.co/24t1c34P #ipa #transcribe #transcription #eltchat |
| Marisa_C | 12:37 PM | RT @SueAnnan: Cambridgeonline/phonetics focus is great for practice and fun at the same time #eltchat |
| SueAnnan | 12:37 PM | Cambridgeonline/phonetics focus is great for practice and fun at the same time #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:37 PM | RT @elawassell: RT @teflerinha: @Marisa_C This is Adrian Underhills http://t.co/BlyUcOw7 <- <3 it! The sounds app http://t.co/kdqP ... |
| jo_cummins | 12:37 PM | @teflerinha @mikeharrison yes - very useful but prep heavy!! #eltchat |
| Marisa_C | 12:38 PM | RT @teflerinha: #eltchat What about games with phonemic symbols? Bingo? > Cambridge has som awesome phon games |
| elawassell | 12:38 PM | Useful blog post about teaching pronunciation http://t.co/SAomqoje #ELTchat |
| theteacherjames | 12:38 PM | RT @bnleez: Pronunciation varies to such a degree, I find the Phon. chart would cause more confusion for learners than it needs to be #e ... |
| Marisa_C | 12:38 PM | Is it important for ur students to learn the phonemic script - one trainee asked Q recently - what do you think? #Eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:38 PM | #eltchat What about games with phonemic symbols? Bingo? |
| jo_cummins | 12:38 PM | @teflerinha @GaryJones01 agreed, it just looks intimidating but once you start to study it it is logical. #eltchat |
| harrisonmike | 12:38 PM | @jo_cummins @teflerinha @mikeharrison just use this to convert it: http://t.co/24t1c34P not always 100% accurate but good enough #eltchat |
| michaelegriffin | 12:38 PM | It is also nice to see phonemic charts focused on us poor, neglected N. Americans. http://t.co/7HYRvlXA |
| theteacherjames | 12:38 PM | RT @harrisonmike: . @teflerinha this is the app I use: http://t.co/24t1c34P #ipa #transcribe #transcription #eltchat |
| bnleez | 12:38 PM | Pronunciation varies to such a degree, I find the Phon. chart would cause more confusion for learners than it needs to be #eltchat |
| theteacherjames | 12:39 PM | @bnleez Good point. Which English pronunciation do we teach anyway? Who chooses? #eltchat |
| bnleez | 12:39 PM | I spend time on pronunciation only when it interferes with communication. #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:39 PM | @Shaunwilden #eltchat Hi Shaun. Discussed for and against, now looking more at how |
| SueAnnan | 12:39 PM | I think the chart is necessary for plurals or past tense regular verbs etc. it is unfair on students to not pay attention to it#eltchat |
| worldteacher | 12:39 PM | RT @teflerinha: #eltchat What about games with phonemic symbols? Bingo? > Yes - & musical 'pass the symbol' is fun, too! |
| bnleez | 12:39 PM | I'm not against using the chart, but I just don't spend that much time on pronunciation...#eltchat |
| Shaunwilden | 12:39 PM | Hello all am back for the rest of #ELTchat |
| teflerinha | 12:39 PM | RT @jo_cummins: @teflerinha @GaryJones01 agreed, it just looks intimidating but once you start to study it it is logical. #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:39 PM | @bnleez #eltchat Mmmm..but all allophones can be contained within each symbol, I think. |
| harrisonmike | 12:40 PM | @teflerinha good one is with minimal pairs and a maze on the board. eg. forked paths, one is 15, the other 50, or bin/bean #eltchat |
| worldteacher | 12:40 PM | @Marisa_C For my sts it is because the sounds in English are so different to Vietnamese - learning the script gives them the key! #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:40 PM | @SueAnnan Yes, very helpful for /d/ /t/ /Id/ endings (and easy symbols!) #eltchat |
| Shaunwilden | 12:40 PM | @teflerinha Ta will try and catch up now :-) #ELTchat Has it been a good discussion so far? |
| KerrCarolyn | 12:40 PM | #eltchat http://t.co/v4iaF1e8 -Sorry forgot #tag this is the 11 colors handout link |
| elawassell | 12:40 PM | RT @theteacherjames: @bnleez Good point. Which English pronunciation do we teach anyway? Who chooses? #ELTchat |
| jo_cummins | 12:40 PM | @Marisa_C @teflerinha I love pron games! dominoes, crosswords.. #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:41 PM | @theteacherjames #eltchat Don't think so as I believe you can encompass variations within each sound- my /ae/ may be different to yours |
| worldteacher | 12:41 PM | @bnleez You probably would if you worked in SE Asia!! :-) #eltchat |
| jo_cummins | 12:41 PM | @Marisa_C maybe not important for all students but certainly useful because of the anomolies in English spelling/pron #eltchat |
| lauraahaha | 12:41 PM | RT @theteacherjames: Does the idea of a 'model' (as suggested by using a uniform chart) undermine local accents & non-native teacher ... |
| elawassell | 12:41 PM | @theteacherjames The pronunciation of the place where the learning happens to take place? NS teach their own as they shdn't fake it #ELTchat |
| theteacherjames | 12:41 PM | RT @Marisa_C: Is it important for ur students to learn the phonemic script - one trainee asked Q recently - what do you think? #Eltchat |
| Shaunwilden | 12:41 PM | Does anyone use the pron apps that publishers are bringing out? #ELTchat |
| teflerinha | 12:41 PM | RT @harrisonmike: @teflerinha good one is with minimal pairs and a maze on the board. eg. forked paths, one is 15, the other 50, or bin/ ... |
| lauraahaha | 12:41 PM | RT @elawassell: RT @theteacherjames: @bnleez Good point. Which English pronunciation do we teach anyway? Who chooses? #ELTchat |
| theteacherjames | 12:41 PM | Does the idea of a 'model' (as suggested by using a uniform chart) undermine local accents & non-native teachers? #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:41 PM | @KerrCarolyn #eltchat Thanks- missed that you'd missed it |
| kingceejay | 12:41 PM | RT @worldteacher: RT @teflerinha: #eltchat What about games with phonemic symbols? Bingo? > Yes - & musical 'pass the symbol' is ... |
| bnleez | 12:42 PM | I would much rather take a "game" or "fun" approach to pronunciation rather than refer to a chart...that's just me. #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:42 PM | @jo_cummins @Marisa_C Yes, I think spelling is a key reason for using the chart as difficult to predict how a word is pronounced #eltchat |
| theteacherjames | 12:42 PM | @SueAnnan But this can be taught without the chart, I've done it many times. #eltchat |
| KerrCarolyn | 12:42 PM | @theteacherjames #eltchat - If you're teaching listening the chart can help you show just how many variants there are!! |
| SueAnnan | 12:42 PM | @harrisonmike @teflerinha yes. I do that with a journey |
| worldteacher | 12:42 PM | RT @SueAnnan: I think the chart is necessary for plurals or past tense regular verbs etc. it is unfair on students to not pay attention ... |
| Marisa_C | 12:42 PM | @worldteacher #eltchat Silent Way teachers using cuisinaire rods claim same - principle is a coding system to represent the sounds |
| KerrCarolyn | 12:43 PM | @bnleez #ELTchat Are the two mutually exclusive? |
| bnleez | 12:43 PM | We have a phonetics class in our BA program in ELT where the chart is essential though. #eltchat |
| Shaunwilden | 12:43 PM | @bnleez But cant the chart be incorporated into a game or fun? #ELTchat |
| teflerinha | 12:43 PM | @bnleez #eltchat Fair enough- I do agree that the chart looks rather intimidating. |
| SueAnnan | 12:43 PM | @theteacherjames me too. But the underlying principles were learned from the chart#eltchat |
| elawassell | 12:43 PM | @Shaunwilden I use Sounds - Adrian Underhill's and EF Pron App (OUP) #ELTchat |
| theteacherjames | 12:43 PM | RT @teflerinha: @theteacherjames #eltchat Don't think so as I believe you can encompass variations within each sound- my /ae/ may be dif ... |
| Marisa_C | 12:43 PM | Using the phonemic chart gives students more autonomy and abolity to research vocab on their own #eltchat |
| jo_cummins | 12:43 PM | @teflerinha @SueAnnan that's one of my faves ;) #eltchat |
| worldteacher | 12:43 PM | @Marisa_C Yes - have read about it, but still can't really understand the Silent Way for pron. :-) #eltchat |
| worldteacher | 12:44 PM | @Marisa_C Yes, but don't they still need to hear the sounds being modelled? #eltchat |
| harrisonmike | 12:44 PM | @teflerinha @bnleez you can break up the chart #eltchat |
| theteacherjames | 12:44 PM | RT @KerrCarolyn: @theteacherjames #eltchat - If you're teaching listening the chart can help you show just how many variants there are!! |
| bnleez | 12:44 PM | Absolutely! RT: @Shaunwilden: @bnleez But cant the chart be incorporated into a game or fun? #ELTchat |
| elawassell | 12:44 PM | RT @Marisa_C: Using the phonemic chart gives students more autonomy and abolity to research vocab on their own #ELTchat |
| KerrCarolyn | 12:44 PM | RT @Marisa_C: Using the phonemic chart gives students more autonomy and abolity to research vocab on their own #eltchat **Agree** |
| theteacherjames | 12:44 PM | @elawassell True, but how would you feel if they basically suggested they didn't want your accent? #ELTchat |
| Shaunwilden | 12:44 PM | @elawassell I've used them #ELTchat on 121 level, have you used them with a class? #ELTchat |
| elawassell | 12:44 PM | There are games/exercises in those apps too. |
| Marisa_C | 12:44 PM | @worldteacher Ss have to be trained first to recognise the colour coding - same as for phonemic script #eltchat |
| worldteacher | 12:45 PM | RT @KerrCarolyn: @theteacherjames #eltchat - If you're teaching listening, chart can help you show how many variants there are! >Good point! |
| bnleez | 12:45 PM | Perhaps. RT: @worldteacher: @bnleez You probably would if you worked in SE Asia!! :-) #eltchat |
| jo_cummins | 12:45 PM | RT @Marisa_C: Using the phonemic chart gives students more autonomy and abolity to research vocab on their own #eltchat |
| elawassell | 12:45 PM | @Shaunwilden I only teach 121 at the moment #ELTchat |
| teflerinha | 12:45 PM | @theteacherjames @SueAnnan Yes, but symbols help, I think- so ss can see it's /t/ not 'tee' #eltchat |
| Marisa_C | 12:45 PM | My trainees have tried showing script first THEN spelling of word - works well #ELtchat |
| worldteacher | 12:46 PM | @bnleez But you can incorporate the chart into lots of different pron games. #eltchat |
| prese1 | 12:46 PM | Have to step out. Thanks for the chat #eltchat |
| bnleez | 12:46 PM | If I had learned pronunciation using the chart, my perspective would probably be quite different. #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:46 PM | #eltchat Another reason 'for': helps ss to see that there's a difference between sounds and letters |
| theteacherjames | 12:46 PM | @teflerinha @SueAnnan I'm still not convinced the sts need to 'see' the pronunciation, just hear & reproduce it. #eltchat |
| Julian_LEnfant | 12:47 PM | #eltchat Have to pop out. Look forward to reading the summary. Thanks everyone! |
| teflerinha | 12:47 PM | @harrisonmike Yes, like that. Sounds Mark Hancock type of thing? #eltchat |
| SueAnnan | 12:47 PM | @theteacherjames @teflerinha seeing it helps with highlighting the difference in form#eltchat |
| Shaunwilden | 12:47 PM | @theteacherjames @teflerinha @SueAnnan but doesn't seeing it help lock ito in the memory this might've been raised already) #ELTchat |
| worldteacher | 12:47 PM | RT @Marisa_C: Using the phonemic chart gives students more autonomy and abolity to research vocab on their own #eltchat > Yes!! |
| teflerinha | 12:47 PM | @prese1 #eltchat Thanks, Paula. |
| elawassell | 12:48 PM | @theteacherjames boohoo - they means Ss? School? |
| bnleez | 12:48 PM | Ok, I'm convinced. :) RT: @worldteacher: @bnleez But you can incorporate the chart into lots of different pron games. #eltchat |
| GaryJones01 | 12:48 PM | @teflerinha Mmmm...but for me there are better methods anyway, such as using rhyme and tongue-twisters #eltchat |
| KerrCarolyn | 12:48 PM | @theteacherjames #ELTchat part of 'understanding accents' journey? Some find it reassuring - identify visually what ears can't deal with |
| worldteacher | 12:48 PM | @Shaunwilden I use the EF Sound Chart app. #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:48 PM | @Shaunwilden @theteacherjames @SueAnnan #eltchat No, not raised, but think it's valid- but maybe because I learn that way? |
| Marisa_C | 12:49 PM | On the other hand some Ts claim that since all words now can be heard via dic recording - why learn the IPA? #ELTchat What do YOU think? |
| TtMadridTEFL | 12:49 PM | RT @Marisa_C: Using the phonemic chart gives students more autonomy and abolity to research vocab on their own #eltchat |
| worldteacher | 12:49 PM | @bnleez My work is done!! :-) :-) #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:49 PM | @GaryJones01 #eltchat Also good methods- but would say they can complement chart.. :) |
| Shaunwilden | 12:49 PM | @teflerinha @theteacherjames @SueAnnan Yes iwas thinking visual learning styles might like to see it #ELTchat |
| bnleez | 12:50 PM | Thanks all for a great chat...off to work! #eltchat |
| bnleez | 12:50 PM | I've found that my students are much more concerned with pronunciation than I am...for better or for worse. #eltchat |
| elawassell | 12:50 PM | GTG - sorry - looking forward to the summary! #ELTchat |
| teflerinha | 12:50 PM | @bnleez @worldteacher #eltchat Has your arm been twisted? ;) |
| KerrCarolyn | 12:51 PM | @bnleez #ELTchat - If its comprehensible and communicates their message does it matter? |
| teflerinha | 12:51 PM | @bnleez #eltchat Thank you- take your chart with you ;) |
| theteacherjames | 12:51 PM | RT @Marisa_C: On the other hand some Ts claim that since all words now can be heard via dic recording - why learn the IPA? #ELTchat What ... |
| theteacherjames | 12:51 PM | @worldteacher @bnleez Booo! Traitor!! #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:51 PM | @Marisa_C #eltchat Yes, did briefly come up..not everyone has access all time, & also may still help to see it as well as hear it (I think) |
| Shaunwilden | 12:52 PM | RT @Marisa_C: One of the probs tho still remains - Ss having probs with CONNECTED talk, not just ind sounds #ELTchat good point |
| Marisa_C | 12:52 PM | One of the probs tho still remains - Ss having probs with CONNECTED talk, not just ind sounds #ELTchat |
| worldteacher | 12:52 PM | @theteacherjames @bnleez I'll win you over yet, James!! :-) #eltchat |
| harrisonmike | 12:52 PM | @teflerinha yeh Pronunciation Games #eltchat |
| worldteacher | 12:53 PM | @theteacherjames I know, but I don't give up easily! :-) #eltchat |
| Marisa_C | 12:53 PM | So, must not neglect follow up productive speaking activs and listening activs for recognitions & Production of the features #ELTchat |
| teflerinha | 12:53 PM | @Marisa_C Yes, absolutely- we discussed this a bit #eltchat Not a lot said on the matter tho- any more thoughts on #connectedspeech? |
| GaryJones01 | 12:53 PM | @teflerinha It's a language not the Da Vinci Code...;-) #eltchat |
| KerrCarolyn | 12:53 PM | @Marisa_C #ELTchat - what about the visual element the symbols bring? |
| worldteacher | 12:53 PM | @Marisa_C Becomes clearer if you can show them connected speech in phonemic script. #eltchat |
| theteacherjames | 12:53 PM | @worldteacher Good luck with that! This is the second chat on this subject & I'm still unconvinced. Open-minded, but unconvinced! #eltchat |
| harrisonmike | 12:54 PM | @Marisa_C so you can show that with the chart symbols eg two apples -> | tuË (w) ˈæplÌ©z | you can show the intrusive /w/ #eltchat |
| kevchanwow | 12:54 PM | @Marisa_C a well thought out IPA chart, linked to locations in the mouth, cannot be replaced by a recording alone #ELTchat |
| theteacherjames | 12:54 PM | @worldteacher :-) #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:54 PM | RT @worldteacher: @Marisa_C Becomes clearer if you can show them connected speech in phonemic script. #eltchat |
| cybraryman1 | 12:55 PM | My Pronunciation page: http://t.co/L5PGqdws Phonological Awareness http://t.co/P8o9UoRg #eltchat #ellchat #esl |
| teflerinha | 12:55 PM | RT @harrisonmike: @Marisa_C so you can show that with the chart symbols eg two apples -> | tuË (w) ˈæplÌ©z | you can show the intrusiv ... |
| Shaunwilden | 12:55 PM | RT @teflerinha: #eltchat #devilsadvocate Should we be teaching phonemic alph if ss have literacy issues? |
| harrisonmike | 12:55 PM | RT @kevchanwow: @Marisa_C a well thought out IPA chart, linked to locations in the mouth, cannot be replaced by a recording alone #ELTchat |
| teflerinha | 12:55 PM | #eltchat #devilsadvocate Should we be teaching phonemic alph if ss have literacy issues? |
| theteacherjames | 12:56 PM | @teflerinha If you're going to start using that hashtag, I'll need it for half my tweets! #eltchat #devilsadvocate |
| harrisonmike | 12:56 PM | @teflerinha I have done, whether it's best or not, don't know #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:56 PM | @harrisonmike @Marisa_C Good example #eltchat Or Would you like to...? /wudzelaikte/ (no phonemic script available!) |
| theteacherjames | 12:56 PM | @harrisonmike @Marisa_C Is writing 'tu wapples' not equally effective? #eltchat |
| KerrCarolyn | 12:57 PM | @theteacherjames #ELTchat but if you team teach how are you going to sell tu wapples to the other teachers? too wapplz |
| teflerinha | 12:57 PM | @theteacherjames :) #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:57 PM | @theteacherjames @harrisonmike @Marisa_C #eltchat No, becos people write things phonetically in very different ways & can b more confusing! |
| Marisa_C | 12:57 PM | @worldteacher that's a nce idea - there is an app or web that turns talk into transcript anyone know it? #eltchat Can't remember |
| Marisa_C | 12:58 PM | @harrisonmike there is that issue - right - more difficult with beginners and young learners (who should bot be taught IPA) #eltchat |
| GaryJones01 | 12:58 PM | @prese1 Me neither..hard to learn, harder to remember.. #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:58 PM | @harrisonmike @theteacherjames @Marisa_C #eltchat Good point |
| theteacherjames | 12:58 PM | @harrisonmike fair point. #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:58 PM | @harrisonmike #eltchat Some would say it's overloading- but I'd still at least use schwa |
| harrisonmike | 12:58 PM | @theteacherjames @Marisa_C using symbols can differentiate sounds from spelling. worry 'tu wapples' could cause spelling mistakes #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:59 PM | RT @Marisa_C: early YLs and early ESOL with literacy issues may be a problem for IPA PLUS spelling #ELTchat |
| Shaunwilden | 12:59 PM | RT @theteacherjames: It's that time when we look for a summary writer. Any volunteers? #eltchat |
| teflerinha | 12:59 PM | @Marisa_C @worldteacher Think someone sent it to me recently- will check later #eltchat |
| theteacherjames | 12:59 PM | It's that time when we look for a summary writer. Any volunteers? #eltchat |
| Marisa_C | 12:59 PM | early YLs and early ESOL with literacy issues may be a problem for IPA PLUS spelling #ELTchat |
| teflerinha | 12:59 PM | @KerrCarolyn @theteacherjames #eltchat Exactly. |
| Edu_Trends | 12:59 PM | My Pronunciation page: http://t.co/XLi66MKR Phonological Awareness #eltchat #ellchat #esl |
| Shaunwilden | 1:00 PM | Thanks to @teflerinha and @theteacherjames for steering the lunchtime #eltchat ship |
| noahholzmann | 1:00 PM | RT @Edu_Trends: My Pronunciation page: http://t.co/XLi66MKR Phonological Awareness #eltchat #ellchat #esl |