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Do you use the phonemic chart with students Why why not and how

Page history last edited by Shaun 11 years, 8 months ago

This is the transcript of #eltchat from 07.011.2012 on the topic of  Do you use the phonemic chart with students. Why/why not and how?

 

 

username time status
teflerinha 12:01 PM #eltchat Ready for Do you use the phonemic chart with students. Why/why not and how? (and finding out how to guest moderate!)
theteacherjames 12:01 PM It's time for another #eltchat. Joining me today is guest moderator @teflerinha.
teflgeek 12:02 PM Morning all #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:02 PM Our topic is "Do you use the phonemic chart with students. Why/why not, and how?" #eltchat
worldteacher 12:03 PM I'll kick off by saying I'm a huge fan of the phonemic chart & use it in every lesson. #eltchat
teflerinha 12:03 PM #eltchat Should we start with the first part? Do you use the phonemic chart with students? Why/why not?
teflgeek 12:04 PM @bnleez sometimes the chart can help learners visualise the difference between sounds though #eltchat
worldteacher 12:04 PM We use the English File Sound Chart & have it on the wall in every classroom as a constant point of reference. #eltchat
teflerinha 12:04 PM @bnleez #eltchat Why don't you use the chart? (not saying you should....)
theteacherjames 12:04 PM @bnleez Why don't you use it? #eltchat
KerrCarolyn 12:04 PM #eltchat I try! I use the symbols for 'tricky' sounds and introduce them one by one
bnleez 12:04 PM I don't use a phonemic chart, just model pronunciation as necessary. #eltchat
teflgeek 12:04 PM we have a phonemic chart on the wall of every classroom, though I prob don't use it as much as I should #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:04 PM RT @teflerinha: #eltchat Should we start with the first part? Do you use the phonemic chart with students? Why/why not?
teflerinha 12:04 PM @worldteacher #eltchat Every lesson, wow! I like it, but... What do you do with it?
bnleez 12:05 PM Since ELLs can find online dictionaries these days, most words come with an audio file with the pronunciation. #eltchat
teflerinha 12:05 PM @KerrCarolyn #eltchat So systematic, not just ad hoc?
KerrCarolyn 12:05 PM #eltchat Agree with @bnleez - its good to show the sound difference even when the spelling is the same TH TH
BobK99 12:05 PM @Shaunwilden  #eltchat I'd love to stay - can't see how anyone can teach English effectively WITHOUT IPA. But I have to go. :)
teflerinha 12:05 PM @teflgeek @bnleez #eltchat I like the way the chart (Underhill's anyway) can show the mouth position
teflerinha 12:06 PM @bnleez True, so less need to interpret symbols..but still a way of recording it if they write words down? #eltchat
michaelegriffin 12:06 PM #ELTchat non-phonemic chart user here. Why not? time/Ss don't know it**/other focuses/confidence lack
worldteacher 12:06 PM RT @BobK99: @Shaunwilden  #eltchat I'd love to stay - can't see how anyone can teach English effectively WITHOUT IPA. But I have to go. :)
yya2 12:06 PM LearnEnglish Apps | LearnEnglish | British Council | @scoopit http://t.co/iQ5HBsUW #eltchat
worldteacher 12:06 PM Also have the individual symbols as flashcards & individual sound posters for sts to add to. #eltchat
teflgeek 12:07 PM @bnleez which is fine for those who (a) have constant access to computer (b) can differentiate between sounds clearly #eltchat - BUT...
teflerinha 12:07 PM @michaelegriffin BTW Is that your confience lack, or the ss? #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:07 PM @BobK99 Pity, I'd love to discuss that statement with you!! #eltchat
teflerinha 12:07 PM @michaelegriffin #eltchat You could..but actually most symbols fairly self evident I find
jo_cummins 12:07 PM I try to use it as much as I can, depending on the class #eltchat
Julian_LEnfant 12:08 PM #eltchat I use the phonemic chart with all learners of all ages. An excellent resource & important for learner autonomy.
michaelegriffin 12:08 PM #ELTchat @teflerinha I meant mine but I could say students might be a bit resistant (not really sure to be honest!)
worldteacher 12:08 PM It makes life so much easier!  I'm with @BobK99 !! #eltchat
teflgeek 12:08 PM @bnleez not all learners work that way and the phonemic chart can help there #eltchat
KerrCarolyn 12:09 PM @michaelegriffin #eltchat I use a little app to train myself on the chart. Makes better use of the Metro than reading the free newspapers
teflgeek 12:09 PM @theteacherjames what about lifelong learning?  #eltchat
jo_cummins 12:09 PM @teflerinha @michaelegriffin as a new teacher I found the IPA really intimidating, so I wonder how students feel sometimes! #eltchat
teflerinha 12:09 PM RT @theteacherjames: Here's a cheeky question: Don't sts have enough to learn without them having to pick up some symbols they'll never  ...
teflerinha 12:09 PM @michaelegriffin #eltchat Agree that it can be overwhelming for ss- and worse for ss without roman alphabet perhaps?
theteacherjames 12:09 PM Here's a cheeky question: Don't sts have enough to learn without them having to pick up some symbols they'll never use again? #eltchat
worldteacher 12:09 PM RT @Julian_LEnfant: #eltchat I use the phonemic chart with all learners of all ages. An excellent resource & important for learner autonomy.
KerrCarolyn 12:10 PM @worldteacher And it needs demystifying!! #eltchat
Julian_LEnfant 12:10 PM #eltchat Which chart do you use for American English. The English File books are great, but there's also Celce-Murcia Brinton & Goodwin's?
jo_cummins 12:10 PM @worldteacher @BobK99 it does once you get to grips with it but I think that that can be tricky at first. #eltchat
teflerinha 12:10 PM RT @KerrCarolyn: @michaelegriffin #eltchat I use a little app to train myself on the chart. Makes better use of the Metro than reading t ...
worldteacher 12:10 PM @theteacherjames But they do use it - all the time - it empowers them - demystifies Eng pron! #eltchat
teflerinha 12:10 PM RT @teflgeek: @theteacherjames if trained in the chart, learners can get word outside classroom, note down pron and practice later #eltchat
teflerinha 12:10 PM @jo_cummins @michaelegriffin Yes, think that's a really fair point. I'd start with the schwa and maybe a few others #eltchat
teflgeek 12:10 PM @theteacherjames if trained in the chart, learners can get word outside classroom, note down pron and practice later #eltchat
jo_cummins 12:11 PM @Julian_LEnfant I agree with learner autonomy , I feel like I'm giving them something really useful when I introduce it! #eltchat
jo_cummins 12:11 PM @Julian_LEnfant I agree with learner autonomy , I feel like I'm giving them something really useful when I introduce it! #eltchat
prese1 12:11 PM I use it with adults but hardly use the symbols with YL  #eltchat
worldteacher 12:11 PM @jo_cummins Like everything! But worth persevering with IMO #eltchat
michaelegriffin 12:11 PM @teflerinha Interestingly my CELTA tutor told me its no problem for Korean/Japanese Ss to pick up easily because new scripts r easy #ELTchat
teflerinha 12:11 PM @Julian_LEnfant #eltchat Good question about American English- confess quite ignorant on this  #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:11 PM @teflgeek Sounds like a lot of training for something that most sts won't really use, to me... #eltchat
Julian_LEnfant 12:11 PM RT @teflgeek: @theteacherjames if trained in the chart, learners can get word outside classroom, note down pron and practice later #eltchat
GaryJones01 12:11 PM @teflerinha No, because for me the chart has to be used extensively or not at all. I use rhyming words for sounds #eltchat
worldteacher 12:12 PM @KerrCarolyn Yes, it does! But my sts love the fact that there are 'only' 44 sounds &, once they know them, they have the key!! #eltchat
KerrCarolyn 12:12 PM @teflerinha #eltchat Or does it have to be used consistently or not at all?
theteacherjames 12:12 PM @teflgeek Practice always trumps theory!! #eltchat
teflerinha 12:12 PM RT @prese1: I use it with adults but hardly use the symbols with YL  #eltchat
KerrCarolyn 12:12 PM @theteacherjames #eltchat depends on the SS - I have a 15yr old who's objective is "to have perfect pronunciation". He uses it!
teflerinha 12:12 PM @GaryJones01 Why does chart have to be used extensively or not at all? #eltchat I often just use a handful of symbols (e.g. schwa)
teflgeek 12:12 PM @theteacherjames well to be honest, my integration of chart use is a bit haphazard... but in theory...? #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:12 PM @worldteacher I'm not really convinced that they will use it, I've never seen anything to indicate that with my sts. #eltchat
EBEFL 12:12 PM phonetic typewriter which might come in handy for this chat or worksheets. I can't distinguish /ʊ/ and /ʌ/ http://t.co/zjPIq1TJ #eltchat
teflgeek 12:13 PM @theteacherjames but I don't expect learners to know it all #eltchat
teflgeek 12:13 PM @theteacherjames I do use it, usually to highlight the difference between what the learners are saying and the target pron.  #eltchat
teflerinha 12:13 PM @michaelegriffin Interesting- suppose they have already succeeded with new scripts. Also wonder if precision is cultural tendency? #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:13 PM @KerrCarolyn fair enough, but I don't think that's a reflection of most sts objectives. #eltchat
jo_cummins 12:13 PM @worldteacher yes, definitely worth the effort #eltchat
teflerinha 12:14 PM @theteacherjames @KerrCarolyn Most ss don't want perfection, but do struggle LOT w/ connected speech- IPA not just abt indiv sounds #eltchat
andyscott55 12:14 PM #eltchat  we have an interactive phonemic chart on our blog ... the learners love it http://t.co/yabYzHsD
jo_cummins 12:14 PM @theteacherjames @worldteacher it does depend on the Sts, and how it is taught #eltchat
michaelegriffin 12:14 PM @teflerinha @jo_cummins #eltchat I think awareness theres a thing called the schwa n knowing when it comes is HUGE(whole chart not so much)
worldteacher 12:14 PM @theteacherjames I have the opposite experience - mine like having a tool they can use to 'de-code' Eng. pron. #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:14 PM RT @GaryJones01: @teflerinha No, because for me the chart has to be used extensively or not at all. I use rhyming words for sounds #eltchat
KerrCarolyn 12:14 PM @theteacherjames #eltchat What if your school teacher has given you a poor model and that's what you practice?
EBEFL 12:15 PM /dɪpðɒŋz ɑ: hɑ:d/ #eltchat
teflerinha 12:15 PM @michaelegriffin @jo_cummins Different sounds cause probs for diff learners (though schwa universal) #eltchat
prese1 12:15 PM RT @andyscott55: #eltchat  we have an interactive phonemic chart on our blog ... the learners love it http://t.co/yabYzHsD
michaelegriffin 12:15 PM @teflerinha Haha. this is what i was told then marched into Japanese uni class when not 1 S had ever heard of it! #ELTchat #confidencekiller
KerrCarolyn 12:15 PM @theteacherjames #eltchat Teaching in France, 'improved pronunciation' is one of the most common objectives
teflerinha 12:15 PM RT @andyscott55: #eltchat  we have an interactive phonemic chart on our blog ... the learners love it http://t.co/yabYzHsD
teflerinha 12:16 PM @jo_cummins @michaelegriffin Do you mean you or students? Think it's helpful if teachers know it so it's there when needed #eltchat
KerrCarolyn 12:16 PM @theteacherjames I define it as a model that leaves the learner in the zone of incomprehensibility #eltchat
jo_cummins 12:16 PM @michaelegriffin @teflerinha I think awaremess is the key really, you don't need to be able to recite the whole chart #eltchat
worldteacher 12:16 PM @jo_cummins @theteacherjames Absolutely agree.  We've found that it works with our sts so train all new teachers in its use. #eltchat
jo_psarra 12:16 PM RT @andyscott55: #eltchat  we have an interactive phonemic chart on our blog ... the learners love it http://t.co/yabYzHsD
teflerinha 12:16 PM @michaelegriffin #eltchat Yes, I've had that kind of experience too!
theteacherjames 12:16 PM @KerrCarolyn It's very hard to define a 'poor model', my feeling is that is a euphemism for 'different to what I want'. #eltchat
prese1 12:17 PM @teflerinha lol #eltchat
michaelegriffin 12:17 PM RT @jo_cummins I think awaremess is the key really, you don't need to be able to recite the whole chart #eltchat | fully agree!
worldteacher 12:17 PM @prese1 If I admit that I do, does that make me a geek? :-) #eltchat
EBEFL 12:17 PM a new script shouldn't be too hard. Japanese and Chinese know thousands of characters. And most consonants are the same. #eltchat
teflerinha 12:17 PM @prese1 #eltchat Yes #smug
theteacherjames 12:17 PM @KerrCarolyn Is that because they need better pronunciation, or think they need better pronunciation? #eltchat
prese1 12:17 PM does anyone know the chart by heart? I don't  #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:18 PM @EBEFL Do you know of any research into the effectiveness of the phonetic system?  #eltchat
jo_cummins 12:18 PM @teflerinha @michaelegriffin I mean Sts really, but also new teachers can learn it slowly I think #eltchat
teflerinha 12:18 PM #eltchat Can I bring in connected speech again- not just about indiv sounds being perfect- best way to show what happens to sounds in speech
theteacherjames 12:18 PM RT @EBEFL: phonetic typewriter which might come in handy for this chat or worksheets. I can't distinguish /ʊ/ and /ʌ/ http://t.co/zjPIq1 ...
teflerinha 12:19 PM @Julian_LEnfant @theteacherjames @teflgeek Don't forget #eltchat hashtag
michaelegriffin 12:19 PM @prese1 @teflerinha I have learned it at least 4 times. #humblebrag #ELTchat
teflerinha 12:19 PM @jo_cummins @michaelegriffin Oh yes, I'd agree with that. #eltchat
Marisa_C 12:20 PM Hi all on #ELTchat - apololies to be late - just finished my delta sesh - what talking abt?
Julian_LEnfant 12:20 PM #eltchat When teaching YLs we'd use it as a secret code; Lee the Lion and Sid the Snake liked certain types of words. (Ah, my Polish days!)
EBEFL 12:20 PM @theteacherjames actually no. The only research I have seen relevant is that "stress-timing" is apparently a myth! #eltchat
jo_cummins 12:20 PM @teflerinha absolutely, and good for the physicality of the sounds and how they work together #eltchat
teflgeek 12:20 PM @Julian_LEnfant @theteacherjames as in more able to develop on their own? #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:20 PM RT @Julian_LEnfant:  I've found students who have followed courses w/pron more resourceful than new students entering the school. #eltchat
teflerinha 12:20 PM @michaelegriffin @prese1 LOL Only way is to use it I think :) #eltchat
KerrCarolyn 12:20 PM @theteacherjames #eltchat For BE  'incomprehensible' presentations don't achieve the outcome they need. SS need to deliver the message
teflerinha 12:21 PM RT @teflerinha: @Marisa_C Phonemic chart- do you use it why/why not and How #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:21 PM RT @EBEFL: @theteacherjames actually no. The only research I have seen relevant is that "stress-timing" is apparently a myth! #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:21 PM @KerrCarolyn Absolutely, but this isn't the only way to teach pronunciation. #eltchat
teflerinha 12:21 PM @Julian_LEnfant #eltchat Similar nostalgia :)
teflerinha 12:22 PM @Marisa_C #eltchat At mo. just general- but I like his because of showing mouth position
theteacherjames 12:22 PM RT @KerrCarolyn: @theteacherjames Agree - but it is one of the tools. What else works for recognizing funny phonics? #eltchat
teflerinha 12:22 PM @theteacherjames @KerrCarolyn No, it's just a tool in the toolkit #eltchat
Marisa_C 12:22 PM @teflerinha Thanks Rachael! WHich chart Adrian Underhills' ???  #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:22 PM @EBEFL Interesting. Would love to read a blog post on that! #eltchat
teflerinha 12:23 PM @michaelegriffin #eltchat Say more...
michaelegriffin 12:23 PM Just re-reading #ELTchat summary from Feb on similar topic and commenter attacks IPA for non-latin based L1s http://t.co/sEtUpZfe
teflerinha 12:23 PM @theteacherjames @KerrCarolyn Diagrams showing tongue position etc, mirrors, bits of paper- voiced/unvoiced #eltchat
prese1 12:23 PM @Marisa_C @teflerinha  I like the ones that come in the English File books #eltchat
michaelegriffin 12:24 PM @teflerinha Probably easier to check the 1st comment there on the blog. (Not my opinion, mind) #ELTchat
KerrCarolyn 12:24 PM @teflerinha @theteacherjames #eltchat. Agree. But to help them when the T is not there?
harrisonmike 12:24 PM #eltchat IMO the phonemic alphabet is useful to highlight problem sounds. Then you compartmentalise problems and drill if sts make errors
Marisa_C 12:25 PM RT @ManosSY: @prese1 @Marisa_C #ELTchat I use those too, English File / Underhill's 1 hr vid also gives loads of ideas to use in class
KerrCarolyn 12:25 PM @teflerinha @theteacherjames #eltchat Or could it be that good for those with specific 'intelligences' i.e. can connect aural to visual
theteacherjames 12:25 PM @KerrCarolyn Good question. I've never been comfortable with the phonemic way, but not sure I have an alternative (don't forget #eltchat!)
teflerinha 12:25 PM @michaelegriffin #eltchat OK, will do, thanks
worldteacher 12:25 PM RT @prese1: @Marisa_C @teflerinha  I like the English File ones #eltchat >Me too! Introduced whole pron course based on them!
teflerinha 12:25 PM #eltchat Time to discuss in more detail exactly HOW people use it, and perhaps which chart they use?
Julian_LEnfant 12:26 PM #eltchat Unfortunately,here many don't include integrate pron teaching & there's none of the classrooms have charts.Sth I'd like to address.
teflgeek 12:26 PM @michaelegriffin thought IPA chart was latin based but meant to be global? It has a list of "extensions" #eltchat
teflerinha 12:26 PM @KerrCarolyn @theteacherjames Never sure if I believe in multiple intelligences... #eltchat
Marisa_C 12:26 PM @worldteacher You mean the ones with the pictures ? #eltchat
michaelegriffin 12:27 PM @teflgeek Right...exactly. I just think that the thought was its too much to learn (too big a jump) if your L1 is very far away. #ELTChat
teflerinha 12:27 PM @Marisa_C @worldteacher #eltchat Personally not keen on pictures as ss may pronounce these words wrong anyway- but like BC chart with...1/1
worldteacher 12:27 PM RT @Marisa_C: @worldteacher You mean the ones with the pictures ? #eltchat Yes - sts associate sound with word, picture & colour - memorable
teflgeek 12:28 PM @michaelegriffin I suppose - but you don't need full IPA chart, just those symbols related to target language (e.g. English) #eltchat
harrisonmike 12:28 PM #eltchat regarding sts with non latin based languages, I gave Urdu and Farsi spkrs a text transcribed to IPA and they started to work it out
theteacherjames 12:28 PM RT @teflerinha: #eltchat Time to discuss in more detail exactly HOW people use it, and perhaps which chart they use?
KerrCarolyn 12:28 PM @worldteacher @Marisa_C #eltchat . 11 Colour vowel sounds are great. I use the colors with kids and they love coloring words and poems
Marisa_C 12:28 PM Isolated practice or integrated practice #Eltchat
teflerinha 12:28 PM @worldteacher @Marisa_C ...words with sound at beg, middle and end as you can click to hear these and it deals with allophones #eltchat 2/2
jo_cummins 12:29 PM @teflerinha @Marisa_C @worldteacher I like the pictures, a good memory jogger! You can drill pic words #eltchat
worldteacher 12:29 PM @teflerinha Great for use at home or if you have tech in the classroom - otherwise I'll stick to paper charts & flashcards! #eltchat
teflerinha 12:29 PM @KerrCarolyn @worldteacher @Marisa_C #eltchat That sounds very silent way based? Could see that working well with YLs
theteacherjames 12:30 PM RT @harrisonmike: #eltchat regarding sts with non latin based languages, I gave Urdu and Farsi spkrs a text transcribed to IPA and they  ...
prese1 12:30 PM RT @jo_cummins: @teflerinha @Marisa_C @worldteacher I like the pictures, a good memory jogger! You can drill pic words #eltchat
worldteacher 12:30 PM RT @Marisa_C: Isolated practice or integrated practice #Eltchat >Both!!
teflgeek 12:30 PM sorry all #eltchat - going to have to duck out early today. see you next time.
teflerinha 12:30 PM @harrisonmike #eltchat Think can be real 'aha' moment for ss as they C how lang REALLY sounds instead of written version #connectedspeech
theteacherjames 12:30 PM @Julian_LEnfant Let's not confuse teaching pronunciation & using the chart. You can do the first without the latter... #eltchat
teflerinha 12:31 PM @worldteacher #eltchat They can work too, not a tech above all kind of teacher myself
worldteacher 12:31 PM RT @jo_cummins: @teflerinha @Marisa_C @worldteacher I like the pictures, a good memory jogger! You can drill pic words #eltchat >Absolutely!
michaelegriffin 12:31 PM @teflgeek Again, not my thoughts but i think the commenter here http://t.co/sEtUpZfe saying its 2 far from L1 and 2 much   work #ELTchat
worldteacher 12:31 PM @KerrCarolyn @Marisa_C Great - this kind of exercise works well with my uni sts, too!! #eltchat
teflerinha 12:31 PM RT @worldteacher: RT @Marisa_C: Isolated practice or integrated practice #Eltchat >Both!!
EBEFL 12:32 PM phonetic chart, in case anyone is not sure http://t.co/gubUGJUR #eltchat
Marisa_C 12:32 PM @teflerinha which pronunciation chart do they mean any links so far?  #eltchat
LavinaRuth 12:32 PM RT @theteacherjames: Here's a cheeky question: Don't sts have enough to learn without them having to pick up some symbols they'll never  ...
theteacherjames 12:33 PM @worldteacher In lesson time, I'd say it's easier. For self study, you may have a point ;-) #eltchat
SueAnnan 12:33 PM Hi everyone. I use the phonemicchartwith all my classes. But I only work on the problem phonemes as required. #eltchat
teflerinha 12:33 PM @Marisa_C #eltchat Any links to charts you use, folks? This is Adrian Underhill's http://t.co/9DLswEMB
worldteacher 12:33 PM RT @teflerinha: @harrisonmike #eltchat Think can be real 'aha' moment for ss as they C how lang REALLY sounds instead of written version ...
worldteacher 12:33 PM @theteacherjames @Julian_LEnfant It's harder, though - isn't it?!! #eltchat
teflerinha 12:34 PM @mikeharrison was talking abt transcribing whole chunks 4 ss to read- think this can be gr8 for connected speech. Any1 else tried? #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:34 PM @Julian_LEnfant Yes, but it's not the only way. I teach pronunciation, but I don't use the chart. #eltchat
worldteacher 12:34 PM RT @Julian_LEnfant: @theteacherjames #eltchat Isn't the chart a tool for teaching pronunciation? > It is in my classroom! :-)
GaryJones01 12:34 PM @teflerinha because it's a heck of a lot to learn and remember... #eltchat
phil3wade 12:34 PM @Marisa_C This is the most useful pron site I've found: http://t.co/O5oomhEP really helps for teaching HOW 2 make the counds. #eltchat
elawassell 12:34 PM Hi All - just popping in - during my short break..
Julian_LEnfant 12:34 PM @theteacherjames #eltchat Isn't the chart a tool for teaching pronunciation?
theteacherjames 12:35 PM RT @phil3wade: @Marisa_C This is the most useful pron site I've found: http://t.co/O5oomhEP really helps for teaching HOW 2 make the cou ...
Julian_LEnfant 12:35 PM @theteacherjames #eltchat OK. But we're talking about the phonemic chart, which can be integrated when focusing on other pron features.
Marisa_C 12:35 PM RT @phil3wade: @Marisa_C This is the most useful pron site I've found: http://t.co/rEVY9w45  . #eltchat  > love this site
theteacherjames 12:35 PM RT @elawassell: Hi All - just popping in - during my short break..
michaelegriffin 12:35 PM RT @phil3wade: @Marisa_C This is the most useful pron site I've found: http://t.co/O5oomhEP really helps for teaching HOW 2 make the cou ...
elawassell 12:36 PM RT @teflerinha: @Marisa_C This is Adrian Underhills http://t.co/BlyUcOw7 <- <3 it! The sounds app http://t.co/kdqPrBam #ELTchat
teflerinha 12:36 PM @Marisa_C @phil3wade Thank you! #eltchat
Julian_LEnfant 12:36 PM @theteacherjames #eltchat Of course, it's not the only way. LIke everything, there are many ways.
michaelegriffin 12:36 PM #ELTchat at the risk of phonemic chart overload...here are 5 http://t.co/KGdpSdL5
worldteacher 12:36 PM @teflerinha Yes - we use phonemic symbols for linked words - very useful. #eltchat
teflerinha 12:36 PM @GaryJones01 Not sure it's as difficult at it appears- consonants mainly the same. And for europeans many dipthongs are logical #eltchat
teflerinha 12:37 PM @harrisonmike #eltchat Thanks!
worldteacher 12:37 PM RT @Julian_LEnfant: @prese1 @Marisa_C @teflerinha Me too. There's an English File Pronunciation app for iPhone, too. #eltchat
harrisonmike 12:37 PM . @teflerinha this is the app I use: http://t.co/24t1c34P #ipa #transcribe #transcription #eltchat
Marisa_C 12:37 PM RT @SueAnnan: Cambridgeonline/phonetics focus is great for practice and fun at the same time #eltchat
SueAnnan 12:37 PM Cambridgeonline/phonetics focus is great for practice and fun at the same time #eltchat
teflerinha 12:37 PM RT @elawassell: RT @teflerinha: @Marisa_C This is Adrian Underhills http://t.co/BlyUcOw7 <- <3 it! The sounds app http://t.co/kdqP ...
jo_cummins 12:37 PM @teflerinha @mikeharrison yes - very useful but prep heavy!! #eltchat
Marisa_C 12:38 PM RT @teflerinha: #eltchat What about games with phonemic symbols? Bingo? > Cambridge has som awesome phon games
elawassell 12:38 PM Useful blog post about teaching pronunciation http://t.co/SAomqoje #ELTchat
theteacherjames 12:38 PM RT @bnleez: Pronunciation varies to such a degree, I find the Phon. chart would cause more confusion for learners than it needs to be #e ...
Marisa_C 12:38 PM Is it important for ur students to learn the phonemic script - one trainee asked Q recently - what do you think? #Eltchat
teflerinha 12:38 PM #eltchat What about games with phonemic symbols? Bingo?
jo_cummins 12:38 PM @teflerinha @GaryJones01 agreed, it just looks intimidating but once you start to study it it is logical. #eltchat
harrisonmike 12:38 PM @jo_cummins @teflerinha @mikeharrison just use this to convert it: http://t.co/24t1c34P not always 100% accurate but good enough #eltchat
michaelegriffin 12:38 PM It is also nice to see phonemic charts focused on us poor, neglected N. Americans. http://t.co/7HYRvlXA
theteacherjames 12:38 PM RT @harrisonmike: . @teflerinha this is the app I use: http://t.co/24t1c34P #ipa #transcribe #transcription #eltchat
bnleez 12:38 PM Pronunciation varies to such a degree, I find the Phon. chart would cause more confusion for learners than it needs to be #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:39 PM @bnleez Good point. Which English pronunciation do we teach anyway? Who chooses? #eltchat
bnleez 12:39 PM I spend time on pronunciation only when it interferes with communication. #eltchat
teflerinha 12:39 PM @Shaunwilden #eltchat Hi Shaun. Discussed for and against, now looking more at how
SueAnnan 12:39 PM I think the chart is necessary for plurals or past tense regular verbs etc. it is unfair on students to not pay attention to it#eltchat
worldteacher 12:39 PM RT @teflerinha: #eltchat What about games with phonemic symbols? Bingo? > Yes - & musical 'pass the symbol' is fun, too!
bnleez 12:39 PM I'm not against using the chart, but I just don't spend that much time on pronunciation...#eltchat
Shaunwilden 12:39 PM Hello all am back for the rest of  #ELTchat
teflerinha 12:39 PM RT @jo_cummins: @teflerinha @GaryJones01 agreed, it just looks intimidating but once you start to study it it is logical. #eltchat
teflerinha 12:39 PM @bnleez #eltchat Mmmm..but all allophones can be contained within each symbol, I think.
harrisonmike 12:40 PM @teflerinha good one is with minimal pairs and a maze on the board. eg. forked paths, one is 15, the other 50, or bin/bean #eltchat
worldteacher 12:40 PM @Marisa_C For my sts it is because the sounds in English are so different to Vietnamese - learning the script gives them the key! #eltchat
teflerinha 12:40 PM @SueAnnan Yes, very helpful for /d/ /t/ /Id/ endings (and easy symbols!) #eltchat
Shaunwilden 12:40 PM @teflerinha Ta will try and catch up now :-)  #ELTchat  Has it been a good discussion so far?
KerrCarolyn 12:40 PM #eltchat http://t.co/v4iaF1e8 -Sorry forgot #tag this is the 11 colors handout link
elawassell 12:40 PM RT @theteacherjames: @bnleez Good point. Which English pronunciation do we teach anyway? Who chooses? #ELTchat
jo_cummins 12:40 PM @Marisa_C @teflerinha I love pron games! dominoes, crosswords.. #eltchat
teflerinha 12:41 PM @theteacherjames #eltchat Don't think so as I believe you can encompass variations within each sound- my /ae/ may be different to yours
worldteacher 12:41 PM @bnleez You probably would if you worked in SE Asia!! :-) #eltchat
jo_cummins 12:41 PM @Marisa_C maybe not important for all students but certainly useful because of the anomolies in English spelling/pron #eltchat
lauraahaha 12:41 PM RT @theteacherjames: Does the idea of a 'model' (as suggested by using a uniform chart) undermine local accents & non-native teacher ...
elawassell 12:41 PM @theteacherjames The pronunciation of the place where the learning happens to take place? NS teach their own as they shdn't fake it #ELTchat
theteacherjames 12:41 PM RT @Marisa_C: Is it important for ur students to learn the phonemic script - one trainee asked Q recently - what do you think? #Eltchat
Shaunwilden 12:41 PM Does anyone use the pron apps that publishers are bringing out?  #ELTchat
teflerinha 12:41 PM RT @harrisonmike: @teflerinha good one is with minimal pairs and a maze on the board. eg. forked paths, one is 15, the other 50, or bin/ ...
lauraahaha 12:41 PM RT @elawassell: RT @theteacherjames: @bnleez Good point. Which English pronunciation do we teach anyway? Who chooses? #ELTchat
theteacherjames 12:41 PM Does the idea of a 'model' (as suggested by using a uniform chart) undermine local accents & non-native teachers? #eltchat
teflerinha 12:41 PM @KerrCarolyn #eltchat Thanks- missed that you'd missed it
kingceejay 12:41 PM RT @worldteacher: RT @teflerinha: #eltchat What about games with phonemic symbols? Bingo? > Yes - & musical 'pass the symbol' is  ...
bnleez 12:42 PM I would much rather take a "game" or "fun" approach to pronunciation rather than refer to a chart...that's just me. #eltchat
teflerinha 12:42 PM @jo_cummins @Marisa_C Yes, I think spelling is a key reason for using the chart as difficult to predict how a word is pronounced #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:42 PM @SueAnnan But this can be taught without the chart, I've done it many times. #eltchat
KerrCarolyn 12:42 PM @theteacherjames #eltchat - If you're teaching listening the chart can help you show just how many variants there are!!
SueAnnan 12:42 PM @harrisonmike @teflerinha yes. I do that with a journey
worldteacher 12:42 PM RT @SueAnnan: I think the chart is necessary for plurals or past tense regular verbs etc. it is unfair on students to not pay attention  ...
Marisa_C 12:42 PM @worldteacher  #eltchat Silent Way teachers using cuisinaire rods claim same - principle is a coding system to represent the sounds
KerrCarolyn 12:43 PM @bnleez #ELTchat Are the two mutually exclusive?
bnleez 12:43 PM We have a phonetics class in our BA program in ELT where the chart is essential though. #eltchat
Shaunwilden 12:43 PM @bnleez But cant the chart be incorporated into a game or fun?  #ELTchat
teflerinha 12:43 PM @bnleez #eltchat Fair enough- I do agree that the chart looks rather intimidating.
SueAnnan 12:43 PM @theteacherjames me too. But the underlying principles were learned from the chart#eltchat
elawassell 12:43 PM @Shaunwilden I use Sounds - Adrian Underhill's and EF Pron App (OUP) #ELTchat
theteacherjames 12:43 PM RT @teflerinha: @theteacherjames #eltchat Don't think so as I believe you can encompass variations within each sound- my /ae/ may be dif ...
Marisa_C 12:43 PM Using the phonemic chart gives students more autonomy and abolity to research vocab on their own #eltchat
jo_cummins 12:43 PM @teflerinha @SueAnnan that's one of my faves ;) #eltchat
worldteacher 12:43 PM @Marisa_C Yes - have read about it, but still can't really understand the Silent Way for pron. :-) #eltchat
worldteacher 12:44 PM @Marisa_C Yes, but don't they still need to hear the sounds being modelled? #eltchat
harrisonmike 12:44 PM @teflerinha @bnleez you can break up the chart #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:44 PM RT @KerrCarolyn: @theteacherjames #eltchat - If you're teaching listening the chart can help you show just how many variants there are!!
bnleez 12:44 PM Absolutely! RT: @Shaunwilden: @bnleez But cant the chart be incorporated into a game or fun?  #ELTchat
elawassell 12:44 PM RT @Marisa_C: Using the phonemic chart gives students more autonomy and abolity to research vocab on their own #ELTchat
KerrCarolyn 12:44 PM RT @Marisa_C: Using the phonemic chart gives students more autonomy and abolity to research vocab on their own #eltchat **Agree**
theteacherjames 12:44 PM @elawassell True, but how would you feel if they basically suggested they didn't want your accent? #ELTchat
Shaunwilden 12:44 PM @elawassell I've used them #ELTchat  on 121 level, have you used them with a class? #ELTchat
elawassell 12:44 PM There are games/exercises in those apps too.
Marisa_C 12:44 PM @worldteacher Ss have to be trained first to recognise the colour coding - same as for phonemic script #eltchat
worldteacher 12:45 PM RT @KerrCarolyn: @theteacherjames #eltchat - If you're teaching listening, chart can help you show how many variants there are! >Good point!
bnleez 12:45 PM Perhaps. RT: @worldteacher: @bnleez You probably would if you worked in SE Asia!! :-) #eltchat
jo_cummins 12:45 PM RT @Marisa_C: Using the phonemic chart gives students more autonomy and abolity to research vocab on their own #eltchat
elawassell 12:45 PM @Shaunwilden I only teach 121 at the moment #ELTchat
teflerinha 12:45 PM @theteacherjames @SueAnnan Yes, but symbols help, I think- so ss can see it's /t/ not 'tee' #eltchat
Marisa_C 12:45 PM My trainees have tried showing script first THEN spelling of word - works well #ELtchat
worldteacher 12:46 PM @bnleez But you can incorporate the chart into lots of different pron games. #eltchat
prese1 12:46 PM Have to step out. Thanks for the chat #eltchat
bnleez 12:46 PM If I had learned pronunciation using the chart, my perspective would probably be quite different. #eltchat
teflerinha 12:46 PM #eltchat Another reason 'for': helps ss to see that there's a difference between sounds and letters
theteacherjames 12:46 PM @teflerinha @SueAnnan I'm still not convinced the sts need to 'see' the pronunciation, just hear & reproduce it. #eltchat
Julian_LEnfant 12:47 PM #eltchat Have to pop out. Look forward to reading the summary. Thanks everyone!
teflerinha 12:47 PM @harrisonmike Yes, like that. Sounds Mark Hancock type of thing? #eltchat
SueAnnan 12:47 PM @theteacherjames @teflerinha seeing it helps with highlighting the difference in form#eltchat
Shaunwilden 12:47 PM @theteacherjames @teflerinha @SueAnnan but doesn't seeing it help lock ito in the memory this might've been raised already) #ELTchat
worldteacher 12:47 PM RT @Marisa_C: Using the phonemic chart gives students more autonomy and abolity to research vocab on their own #eltchat > Yes!!
teflerinha 12:47 PM @prese1 #eltchat Thanks, Paula.
elawassell 12:48 PM @theteacherjames boohoo - they means Ss? School?
bnleez 12:48 PM Ok, I'm convinced. :) RT: @worldteacher: @bnleez But you can incorporate the chart into lots of different pron games. #eltchat
GaryJones01 12:48 PM @teflerinha Mmmm...but for me there are better methods anyway, such as using rhyme and tongue-twisters #eltchat
KerrCarolyn 12:48 PM @theteacherjames #ELTchat  part of 'understanding accents' journey? Some find it reassuring - identify visually what ears can't deal with
worldteacher 12:48 PM @Shaunwilden I use the EF Sound Chart app. #eltchat
teflerinha 12:48 PM @Shaunwilden @theteacherjames @SueAnnan #eltchat No, not raised, but think it's valid- but maybe because I learn that way?
Marisa_C 12:49 PM On the other hand some Ts claim that since all words now can be heard via dic recording - why learn the IPA? #ELTchat What do YOU think?
TtMadridTEFL 12:49 PM RT @Marisa_C: Using the phonemic chart gives students more autonomy and abolity to research vocab on their own #eltchat
worldteacher 12:49 PM @bnleez My work is done!! :-) :-) #eltchat
teflerinha 12:49 PM @GaryJones01 #eltchat Also good methods- but would say they can complement chart.. :)
Shaunwilden 12:49 PM @teflerinha @theteacherjames @SueAnnan Yes iwas thinking visual learning styles might like to see it #ELTchat
bnleez 12:50 PM Thanks all for a great chat...off to work! #eltchat
bnleez 12:50 PM I've found that my students are much more concerned with pronunciation than I am...for better or for worse. #eltchat
elawassell 12:50 PM GTG - sorry - looking forward to the summary!  #ELTchat
teflerinha 12:50 PM @bnleez @worldteacher #eltchat Has your arm been twisted? ;)
KerrCarolyn 12:51 PM @bnleez #ELTchat - If its comprehensible and communicates their message does it matter?
teflerinha 12:51 PM @bnleez #eltchat Thank you- take your chart with you ;)
theteacherjames 12:51 PM RT @Marisa_C: On the other hand some Ts claim that since all words now can be heard via dic recording - why learn the IPA? #ELTchat What ...
theteacherjames 12:51 PM @worldteacher @bnleez Booo! Traitor!! #eltchat
teflerinha 12:51 PM @Marisa_C  #eltchat Yes, did briefly come up..not everyone has access all time, & also may still help to see it as well as hear it (I think)
Shaunwilden 12:52 PM RT @Marisa_C: One of the probs tho still remains - Ss having probs with CONNECTED talk, not just ind sounds #ELTchat good point
Marisa_C 12:52 PM One of the probs tho still remains - Ss having probs with CONNECTED talk, not just ind sounds #ELTchat
worldteacher 12:52 PM @theteacherjames @bnleez I'll win you over yet, James!! :-) #eltchat
harrisonmike 12:52 PM @teflerinha yeh Pronunciation Games #eltchat
worldteacher 12:53 PM @theteacherjames I know, but I don't give up easily! :-) #eltchat
Marisa_C 12:53 PM So, must not neglect follow up productive speaking activs and listening activs for recognitions & Production of the features #ELTchat
teflerinha 12:53 PM @Marisa_C Yes, absolutely- we discussed this a bit #eltchat Not a lot said on the matter tho- any more thoughts on #connectedspeech?
GaryJones01 12:53 PM @teflerinha It's a language not the Da Vinci Code...;-) #eltchat
KerrCarolyn 12:53 PM @Marisa_C #ELTchat - what about the visual element the symbols bring?
worldteacher 12:53 PM @Marisa_C Becomes clearer if you can show them connected speech in phonemic script. #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:53 PM @worldteacher Good luck with that! This is the second chat on this subject & I'm still unconvinced. Open-minded, but unconvinced! #eltchat
harrisonmike 12:54 PM @Marisa_C so you can show that with the chart symbols eg two apples -> | tuË (w) ˈæplÌ©z | you can show the intrusive /w/ #eltchat
kevchanwow 12:54 PM @Marisa_C a well thought out IPA chart, linked to locations in the mouth, cannot be replaced by a recording alone #ELTchat
theteacherjames 12:54 PM @worldteacher :-) #eltchat
teflerinha 12:54 PM RT @worldteacher: @Marisa_C Becomes clearer if you can show them connected speech in phonemic script. #eltchat
cybraryman1 12:55 PM My Pronunciation page: http://t.co/L5PGqdws Phonological Awareness http://t.co/P8o9UoRg #eltchat #ellchat #esl
teflerinha 12:55 PM RT @harrisonmike: @Marisa_C so you can show that with the chart symbols eg two apples -> | tuË (w) ˈæplÌ©z | you can show the intrusiv ...
Shaunwilden 12:55 PM RT @teflerinha: #eltchat #devilsadvocate Should we be teaching phonemic alph if ss have literacy issues?
harrisonmike 12:55 PM RT @kevchanwow: @Marisa_C a well thought out IPA chart, linked to locations in the mouth, cannot be replaced by a recording alone #ELTchat
teflerinha 12:55 PM #eltchat #devilsadvocate Should we be teaching phonemic alph if ss have literacy issues?
theteacherjames 12:56 PM @teflerinha If you're going to start using that hashtag, I'll need it for half my tweets! #eltchat #devilsadvocate
harrisonmike 12:56 PM @teflerinha I have done, whether it's best or not, don't know #eltchat
teflerinha 12:56 PM @harrisonmike @Marisa_C Good example #eltchat Or Would you like to...? /wudzelaikte/ (no phonemic script available!)
theteacherjames 12:56 PM @harrisonmike @Marisa_C Is writing 'tu wapples' not equally effective? #eltchat
KerrCarolyn 12:57 PM @theteacherjames #ELTchat but if you team teach how are you going to sell tu wapples to the other teachers? too wapplz
teflerinha 12:57 PM @theteacherjames :) #eltchat
teflerinha 12:57 PM @theteacherjames @harrisonmike @Marisa_C #eltchat No, becos people write things phonetically in very different ways & can b more confusing!
Marisa_C 12:57 PM @worldteacher that's a nce idea - there is an app or web that turns talk into transcript anyone know it?  #eltchat Can't remember
Marisa_C 12:58 PM @harrisonmike there is that issue - right - more difficult with beginners and young learners (who should bot be taught IPA) #eltchat
GaryJones01 12:58 PM @prese1 Me neither..hard to learn, harder to remember.. #eltchat
teflerinha 12:58 PM @harrisonmike @theteacherjames @Marisa_C #eltchat Good point
theteacherjames 12:58 PM @harrisonmike fair point. #eltchat
teflerinha 12:58 PM @harrisonmike #eltchat Some would say it's overloading- but I'd still at least use schwa
harrisonmike 12:58 PM @theteacherjames @Marisa_C using symbols can differentiate sounds from spelling. worry 'tu wapples' could cause spelling mistakes #eltchat
teflerinha 12:59 PM RT @Marisa_C: early YLs and early ESOL with literacy issues may be a problem for IPA PLUS spelling #ELTchat
Shaunwilden 12:59 PM RT @theteacherjames: It's that time when we look for a summary writer. Any volunteers? #eltchat
teflerinha 12:59 PM @Marisa_C @worldteacher Think someone sent it to me recently- will check later #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:59 PM It's that time when we look for a summary writer. Any volunteers? #eltchat
Marisa_C 12:59 PM early YLs and early ESOL with literacy issues may be a problem for IPA PLUS spelling #ELTchat
teflerinha 12:59 PM @KerrCarolyn @theteacherjames #eltchat Exactly.
Edu_Trends 12:59 PM My Pronunciation page: http://t.co/XLi66MKR Phonological Awareness #eltchat #ellchat #esl
Shaunwilden 1:00 PM Thanks to @teflerinha  and @theteacherjames  for steering the lunchtime #eltchat ship
noahholzmann 1:00 PM RT @Edu_Trends: My Pronunciation page: http://t.co/XLi66MKR Phonological Awareness #eltchat #ellchat #esl

 

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