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Does Feedback on Errors Help in avoiding Fossilization

Page history last edited by Marisa Constantinides 11 years, 7 months ago

Does feedback really help or are mistakes made by learners fossilised.doc

 

username 

time

status

leoselivan

11:59 PM

http://t.co/mmySYHK5 - Truscott's website - (in)famous anti grammar correction ELT researcher - with links to his articles #eltchat

Shaunwilden

11:01 PM

@Marisa_C oh you have met Pobody as well, nice bloke #ELTchat

Wiktor_K

11:01 PM

Evening everyone, tweeting from a tablet 2nite, will be slow but attentive. #eltchat

Marisa_C

11:01 PM

Hello everyone and welcome to an #ELTchat where we are discussin errors & correction - remember: Pobody's Nerfect!

theteacherjames

11:02 PM

Good evening everyone. #eltchat

SueAnnan

11:02 PM

@Shaunwilden  'Lo Shaun #ELTchat

Shaunwilden

11:02 PM

@SueAnnan  gosh :-) #ELTchat

carlaarena

11:02 PM

RT @marisa_c: Hello everyone and welcome to an #ELTchat where we are discussin errors & correction - remember: Pobody's Nerfect!

SueAnnan

11:02 PM

Hi Guys. Second time today :-) #ELTchat

Marisa_C

11:02 PM

RT @Shaunwilden: @Marisa_C oh you have met Pobody as well, nice bloke #ELTchat > :-[D

ljp2010

11:03 PM

#Eltchat  Hi everyone!  Been so long.  Hope I can stick around today :-)

SueAnnan

11:03 PM

@carlaarena  Hi Carla #eltchat

carlaarena

11:03 PM

Hey @marisa_c @Shaunwilden following you in #eltchat

teacherthom

11:03 PM

Hi! #eltchat

Marisa_C

11:03 PM

@carlaarena  #ELTchat  Welcome welcome!!!! @SueAnnan @MarjorieRosenbe @teacherthom @cioccas

Shaunwilden

11:04 PM

@teacherthom one that is fixed in the sts head #ELTchat

Marisa_C

11:04 PM

RT @teacherthom: 1st question: what do we mean by fossilised? #eltchat > good opening gambit

SueAnnan

11:04 PM

@teacherthom  fixed by practice? #eltchat

hartle

11:04 PM

#eltchat hi everyone

Shaunwilden

11:04 PM

RT @teacherthom: RT @teacherthom: 1st question: what do we mean by fossilised? #eltchat

escocesa_madrid

11:04 PM

I'm back after a long absence from #eltchat Hello everyone!

theteacherjames

11:04 PM

@carlaarena Hi! #eltchat

hartle

11:04 PM

RT @Wiktor_K: Evening everyone, tweeting from a tablet 2nite, will be slow but attentive. #eltchat. Me too

teacherthom

11:04 PM

1st question: what do we mean by fossilised? #eltchat

Marisa_C

11:04 PM

@carlaarena lovely to have you join superlady  #eltchat

Shaunwilden

11:04 PM

@carlaarena Hey cheese lady :-) #ELTchat

David__Boughton

11:05 PM

You got me twice today #eltchat. Wonder when I will actually get work done.

cioccas

11:05 PM

RT @Marisa_C: Can you get rid of a fossilized error easily? #eltchat < Usually not easy, but slowly & with effort (by Ss) I think yes.

louisealix68

11:05 PM

hi all - have half an eye on #eltchat as am also 'enjoying a break'!

carlaarena

11:05 PM

RT @marisa_c: RT @teacherthom: 1st question: what do we mean by fossilised? #eltchat

SueAnnan

11:05 PM

@Marisa_C  I don't think you can. Been trying to rid my guys of some for years #ELTchat

theteacherjames

11:05 PM

@teacherthom Changed how? #eltchat

CELT_Athens

11:05 PM

RT @teacherthom: my definition of what fossilised actually means has radically changed since I started working in esol #eltchat > expand?

teacherthom

11:05 PM

6 months+ in Upp Int class = plateauing, living in the UK since 1978 and still beginner = fossilised #eltchat

theteacherjames

11:05 PM

Always good to see our regulars here! @escocesa_madrid @ljp2010  @hartle  #Eltchat

vickyloras

11:05 PM

RT @Marisa_C: RT @Marisa_C: Here is the summary of a similar #ELTchat we did in early 2011 - Have a quick looksee http://t.co/CLEMHTdY  - getting star ...

Marisa_C

11:05 PM

Can you get rid of a fossilized error easily? #eltchat

teacherthom

11:05 PM

my definition of what fossilised actually means has radically changed since I started working in esol #eltchat

SueAnnan

11:05 PM

RT @SueAnnan: @teacherthom  fixed by practice? #eltchat

MarjorieRosenbe

11:06 PM

There are specific errors that most German-speakers all make & I try to break the habit. #eltchat

Shaunwilden

11:06 PM

@cioccas  I cant get used to you in evening #ELTchat I keep thinking it's lunchtime :-)

vickyloras

11:06 PM

@Marisa_C no, in most cases it takes a lot of time to reverse the situation #ELTChat

Marisa_C

11:06 PM

RT @David__Boughton: You got me twice today #eltchat. Wonder when I will actually get work done. > me too :-) not much sleep i guess

Wiktor_K

11:06 PM

For me fossilized is related to learners interlanguage, so v subjective. But it doesnt simply mean mistakes, i would think. #eltchat

ljp2010

11:06 PM

#Eltchat  a colleague of mine calls them teddy bears i.e. the sts have been saying it so long that it's "theirs" and they love them!

hartle

11:06 PM

#eltchat I think there is feedback and feedback :-)

Marisa_C

11:07 PM

So fossilized errors extremely difficult to dislodge - sounds almost like a brain trojan horse - malware of ur interlanguage! :-) #eltchat

escocesa_madrid

11:07 PM

@louisealix68 getting them to notice is definitely the key! then they correct it themselves #eltchat

SueAnnan

11:07 PM

@cioccas  Hi Lesley #ELTchat

David__Boughton

11:07 PM

@Marisa_C sometimes it just takes student awareness to fix it. #eltchat

cioccas

11:07 PM

@Shaunwilden No, it's breakfast time :-) #ELTchat

antoniaclare

11:07 PM

Hi everyone #eltchat talking about errors and correction tonight

SueAnnan

11:07 PM

@vickyloras  I agree. It is possible, but not easy at all #ELTChat

knolinfos

11:07 PM

@Marisa_C Hi, I will present 2 YOU some very interesting tools for corrections #ELTchat

louisealix68

11:07 PM

I think can only get rid of fossilized errors if self become aware of them 'noticing' #eltchat

antoniaclare

11:08 PM

Fossilised errors are a bit like bad habits.  You know they're wrong, but still don't seem to be able to get it right #eltchat

cioccas

11:08 PM

@SueAnnan Hi Sue #ELTchat

Marisa_C

11:08 PM

RT @escocesa_madrid: @David__Boughton definitely - the ideal situation is that the learner starts to correct themselves #eltchat

SueAnnan

11:08 PM

RT @Marisa_C: So fossilized errors  difficult 2 dislodge - sounds almost lk a brain trojan horse - malware of ur interlanguage! :-) #eltchat

cioccas

11:08 PM

RT @louisealix68: I think can only get rid of fossilized errors if self become aware of them 'noticing' #eltchat

David__Boughton

11:08 PM

RT @ljp2010: RT @ljp2010: #Eltchat  a colleague of mine calls them teddy bears i.e. the sts have been saying it so long that it's "theirs" and they l ...

Marisa_C

11:08 PM

RT @knolinfos: @Marisa_C Hi, I will present 2 YOU some very interesting tools for corrections #ELTchat > please share

escocesa_madrid

11:08 PM

@David__Boughton definitely - the ideal situation is that the learner starts to correct themselves #eltchat

louisealix68

11:08 PM

@escocesa_madrid 'tho scary sometimes help to record so notice self #eltchat

Shaunwilden

11:08 PM

@David__Boughton hmm maybe but I know many sts who are very aware they have fossilied errors and try and they might...#ELTchat

hartle

11:09 PM

#eltchat A lot depends on the learner's motivation. If you really want to focus on yr language you can, like stopping smoking

Shaunwilden

11:09 PM

RT @escocesa_madrid: RT @escocesa_madrid: how can we get learners to start 'noticing' the errors? #eltchat

Wiktor_K

11:09 PM

@Marisa_C trojan is a nice analogy, but maybe some folks are just wired differently and take longer to get there:-) #eltchat

Marisa_C

11:09 PM

But the issue remains - conscious self correction or self monitoring available when time not an issue - e.g. while writing #eltchat

escocesa_madrid

11:09 PM

how can we get learners to start 'noticing' the errors? #eltchat

MarjorieRosenbe

11:09 PM

They usually say 'what means ...?' I write correct form on board & refer to it & refuse to answer till they say it correctly. #eltchat

David__Boughton

11:10 PM

@Shaunwilden maybe that means there are two types of fossilisd errors. Those Ss are aware of and those they aren't. #eltchat

toulasklavou

11:10 PM

Hi everyone!#eltchat

Marisa_C

11:10 PM

RT @louisealix68: @Marisa_C #eltchat for writing I ask sts to keep 'error log' and always consult b4 writing > yes nice idea

escocesa_madrid

11:10 PM

@Shaunwilden they are often surprised at the errors they make! #ELTchat

cioccas

11:10 PM

@louisealix68 @escocesa_madrid Sometimes recording & listening to themselves is when they notice the error for first time! #ELTchat

antoniaclare

11:10 PM

RT @escocesa_madrid: @MarjorieRosenbe writing common errors on the board is one way to get them to notice mistakes #eltchat

Marisa_C

11:10 PM

RT @escocesa_madrid: how can we get learners to start 'noticing' the errors? #eltchat > some Ts like to showcase range of errors as LA

Shaunwilden

11:10 PM

@escocesa_madrid Recording them or themselves is a start #ELTchat

MarjorieRosenbe

11:10 PM

@louisealix68 Agree. They need to recognise errors themselves. #eltchat

louisealix68

11:10 PM

@Marisa_C #eltchat for writing I ask sts to keep 'error log' and always consult b4 writing

escocesa_madrid

11:10 PM

@MarjorieRosenbe writing common errors on the board is one way to get them to notice mistakes #eltchat

SueAnnan

11:10 PM

accuracy or fluency? #ELTchat

antoniaclare

11:10 PM

#eltchat The pathways in the brain have become automatic, but they're taking a slightly different route #eltchat

shaznosel

11:10 PM

@theteacherjames  I'm here too...good to see you all! My tweetdeck is down so tweeting #eltchat

theteacherjames

11:10 PM

It's difficult to deal with fossilised errors without sounding like you're nagging or overcorrecting. #eltchat

Wiktor_K

11:11 PM

A. Underhill, last Saturday at Oxford: "interview your mistake. Ask it how it got there". Useful for thinking about errors? #eltchat

escocesa_madrid

11:11 PM

@Shaunwilden yes, good idea to make learners aware of the concept of different types of errors #ELTchat

MarjorieRosenbe

11:11 PM

@carlaarena @Marisa_C @teacherthom Errors they are used to and don't notice. #eltchat

SueAnnan

11:11 PM

@theteacherjames  sometimes I'm so happy to hear them speak, I don't mind the fossils #ELTchat

didolores

11:11 PM

RT @Marisa_C: RT @Marisa_C: Here is the summary of a similar #ELTchat we did in early 2011 - Have a quick looksee http://t.co/CLEMHTdY  - getting star ...

antoniaclare

11:11 PM

RT @cioccas: Sometimes recording & listening to themselves is when they notice the error for first time! #ELTchat Recordings v useful

Shaunwilden

11:11 PM

@David__Boughton good point! #ELTchat

shaznosel

11:11 PM

@Marisa_C @teacherthom I assume fossilised are errors that are embedded..not easy to correct #eltchat

theteacherjames

11:11 PM

RT @Shaunwilden: RT @Shaunwilden: @escocesa_madrid Recording them or themselves is a start #ELTchat

theteacherjames

11:11 PM

@SueAnnan That is the question! #ELTchat

Shaunwilden

11:11 PM

@escocesa_madrid Yes but its great for them to decide what is fossilized, what is not an imp error etc etc #ELTchat

vickyloras

11:11 PM

RT @theteacherjames It's difficult to deal with fossilised errors without sounding like you're nagging or overcorrecting. #eltchat

Marisa_C

11:11 PM

@Wiktor_K sure - but we re not talking just abt a slower rate of acquisition here  #eltchat

SueAnnan

11:12 PM

@antoniaclare  I agree with you #eltchat

hartle

11:12 PM

RT @Marisa_C: RT @Marisa_C: Here is the summary of a similar #ELTchat we did in early 2011 - Have a quick looksee http://t.co/CLEMHTdY  - getting star ...

antoniaclare

11:12 PM

In fact, I'm not even sure how useful error correction is on very fixed errors #eltchat

David__Boughton

11:12 PM

@Shaunwilden should error correction be so complicated we can't just tell them? #eltchat

Marisa_C

11:12 PM

@stephenburrows  #eltchat jut got started

cioccas

11:12 PM

RT @SueAnnan: @theteacherjames  sometimes I'm so happy to hear them speak, I don't mind the fossils #ELTchat <Me too!

stephenburrows

11:12 PM

#eltchat hi everyone, trying to catch up...

hartle

11:13 PM

#eltchat there is a time for accuracy and a time for communication. An accuracy slot for self correction post discussion is gd if extended

knolinfos

11:13 PM

@Marisa_C Hi, please check my #curation http://t.co/OsJHqUMO έΑο  where #Ginger is a very good tool #ELTchat

MarjorieRosenbe

11:13 PM

@Marisa_C True. They 'sound' right to srs. #eltchat

antoniaclare

11:13 PM

I've been correcting some of the same mistakes my partner makes for nearly 20 years! #eltchat

Shaunwilden

11:13 PM

@antoniaclare Yes I dont think it works, esp if the sts is aware of it #ELTchat

escocesa_madrid

11:13 PM

listening to themselves is good, especially for fossilized pronunciation errors #eltchat

shaznosel

11:13 PM

@Marisa_C Difficult to get rid of without destroying the learners' confidnece..how do we approach this ?#eltchat

shaznosel

11:14 PM

@antoniaclare I agree as the learner tends to lose confidence and who determins how imp the error is #eltchat

stephenburrows

11:14 PM

#eltchat about error correction, I always do it after writing tasks, create a worksheet based on errors, sts really appreciate it...

antoniaclare

11:14 PM

I wonder if our approach to these kinds of errors is changing as English becomes more global, and non-native models more common #eltchat

carlaarena

11:14 PM

@antoniaclare I┬┤ve been exploring more and more self-awareness through St recording through #mlearning . It works!  #eltchat

Marisa_C

11:14 PM

@antoniaclare  #eltchat I think it's much more difficult for adults to get rid of such errors - easier for YLs - No?

louisealix68

11:14 PM

#eltchat fossilized errors worse in writing (is permanent) - agree?

teacherthom

11:14 PM

@SueAnnan @Shaunwilden interesting but I can't think of a better e.g. than living 30+ yrs in L2 country and still @ beginner lvl #eltchat

Shaunwilden

11:14 PM

@David__Boughton am not fan of straight out telling them #ELTchat

SueAnnan

11:14 PM

If students can communicate effectively, does it matter? #ELTchat

theteacherjames

11:14 PM

@cioccas @SueAnnan Yep, been there too. #ELTchat

antoniaclare

11:15 PM

@Marisa_C Yes, I guess learners are a little more flexible, but they are also less bothered about getting it right #eltchat

steven_odonnell

11:15 PM

how about a 'bottom up' strateg, starting with working on the most 'fundamental' errors-those that grate on a native speakers' ears #eltchat

stephenburrows

11:15 PM

#eltchat but D.Willis suggests that students know the errors they're making, when you highlight them, they're already pretty aware

MarjorieRosenbe

11:15 PM

@vickyloras Oh yes. like 'I become a sausage.' rather than 'I would like ... #eltchat

Marisa_C

11:15 PM

RT @carlaarena: @antoniaclare I┬┤ve been exploring more and more self-awareness through St recording through #mlearning . It works!  #eltchat

escocesa_madrid

11:15 PM

@Marisa_C   #eltchat I agree, but often adults are more aware

SueAnnan

11:15 PM

@teacherthom  I'm teaching a large group of those at the moment :-) #eltchat

hartle

11:15 PM

#eltchat sometimes "fossilised" errors are not just that. Using a collocation that comes from L1 in the L2 can be a way of keeping identity.

Shaunwilden

11:15 PM

@teacherthom @SueAnnan  but is that the fault of fossilisation? #ELTchat

antoniaclare

11:15 PM

RT @carlaarena: @antoniaclare I┬┤ve been exploring more and more self-awareness through St recording through #mlearning . It works!  #eltchat

SueAnnan

11:16 PM

some of my guys have L1 interference, and some have mis-learned stuff. The second case is easier to correct IMO #ELTchat

stephenburrows

11:16 PM

@Shaunwilden #eltchat nah, I make errors all the time. I contribute to a football messageboard, when I read back on some posts, I'm shocked

antoniaclare

11:16 PM

@stephenburrows I think if we can help them to notice the errors before they fossilise, then OK #eltchat

escocesa_madrid

11:16 PM

i find with my spanish learners, peer pressure is a problem, they know it's wrong but don't want to stand out from their peers #eltchat

1littlewanderer

11:16 PM

@stephenburrows love this idea! #eltchat

steven_odonnell

11:16 PM

the most like third person 's and question forms and then the awareness should hopefully stand them in good stead to self correct #eltchat

vickyloras

11:16 PM

RT @shaznosel: RT @shaznosel: @antoniaclare I agree as the learner tends to lose confidence and who determins how imp the error is #eltchat

Marisa_C

11:16 PM

Are we only talking about grammar errors or other types as well, e.g. functional faux pas, pronunciation, sounding aggressive, etc? #eltchat

Shaunwilden

11:16 PM

@gret Please only tweet about the topic during #ELTchat

hartle

11:16 PM

@SueAnnan #eltchat it matters if the error stops them communicating effectively or if they want to be more effective.

MarjorieRosenbe

11:16 PM

@antoniaclare I am not sure thay always know they are wrong. #eltchat

cioccas

11:16 PM

RT @louisealix68: #eltchat fossilized errors worse in writing (is permanent) - agree? < No, think it's easier with writing, can see errors.

Shaunwilden

11:16 PM

@stephenburrows So they are makin them to spite us :-) #ELTchat

SueAnnan

11:17 PM

@hartle  sure Sharon. I agree if it hinders communication #eltchat

ljp2010

11:17 PM

#Eltchat @Marisa_C  Surely these are most important i.e. if they cause offense or can't be understood

Marisa_C

11:17 PM

RT @Shaunwilden: @Marisa_C Can all those be fossilised? #ELTchat > sure why not? Pron errors most difficult for adults

David__Boughton

11:17 PM

@Shaunwilden why not? Someone has to. That's what they ask for. #eltchat

MarjorieRosenbe

11:17 PM

@Marisa_C In writing it can be easier to self-correct. #eltchat

didolores

11:17 PM

#eltchat whn there isnt enough corrective feedbck at early stages of learning L2 whn fluency is considerd imprtnt,fossilisation's inevitable

cioccas

11:17 PM

@carlaarena @antoniaclare  Agree - Ss mobile phones are very useful ally in getting them to notice #ELTchat

teacherthom

11:17 PM

What is the connection between fossilisation and motivation? #eltchat

theteacherjames

11:17 PM

@stephenburrows So it's not so much about 'teaching' them it's wrong as it is about reminding them that they've done it again. #eltchat

Shaunwilden

11:17 PM

@Marisa_C Can all those be fossilised? #ELTchat

Shaunwilden

11:18 PM

@Marisa_C  Yes i agree, I wondering more about sounding agressive #ELTchat

theteacherjames

11:18 PM

@stephenburrows Sometimes only a look is enough to remind them. #eltchat

MarjorieRosenbe

11:18 PM

@escocesa_madrid I've starting writing them on board & keep referring to them. #eltchat

SueAnnan

11:18 PM

RT @Marisa_C: RT @ljp2010: #Eltchat @Marisa_C Surely ths R most important i.e. if they cause offense or cnt B understood > fully agree

didolores

11:18 PM

RT @Marisa_C: RT @Marisa_C: "Does feedback really help or are mistakes made by learners fossilised?" Our Topic for our next #ELTchat today in abt an h ...

steven_odonnell

11:18 PM

#eltchat on writing tasks, i sometimes tell them "this time i'll be looking out for article usage" or such like - focus on one error type

Shaunwilden

11:18 PM

@David__Boughton I think helping them become self-aware is better #ELTchat

Marisa_C

11:18 PM

RT @ljp2010: #Eltchat @Marisa_C  Surely these are most important i.e. if they cause offense or can't be understood > fully agree

hartle

11:18 PM

#eltchat the more learners elaborate the more memorable so self correction (spoken & written) needs to be followed by extension, personalise

stephenburrows

11:18 PM

@theteacherjames #eltchat nice one james, yeah... They know they've done it, I think it's just a case of becoming tighter with your output

shaznosel

11:18 PM

@SueAnnan communication is the most important factor and  global eng expanding, who notices mistakes #eltchat

theteacherjames

11:18 PM

@steven_odonnell I don't think those are the real problems, it's the problems that really impede communication we should tackle. #eltchat

Shaunwilden

11:18 PM

@stephenburrows  :-) Yeah esp if comes to typing I am the same #ELTchat

David__Boughton

11:19 PM

@Shaunwilden I guess that's what i mean by telling them. #eltchat

Shaunwilden

11:19 PM

@Marisa_C @ljp2010  Is that because  grammatical ones are easier to handle #ELTchat

antoniaclare

11:19 PM

Sometimes I write them on little slips of paper to hand to each student at the end of their speaking task (their personal feedback) #eltchat

theteacherjames

11:19 PM

@Shaunwilden @stephenburrows It's a nice look! #ELTchat

Wiktor_K

11:19 PM

The problem for most teachers is measuring the process effectively. Correction is ok, but we need to know it has worked. #eltchat

Shaunwilden

11:19 PM

@theteacherjames @stephenburrows  Scary :-) #ELTchat

Marisa_C

11:19 PM

@ljp2010 I think we pay far too much attention on the grammar accuracy and less on sociolinguistic appropriacy - attitude etc #Eltchat

knolinfos

11:19 PM

@Marisa_C Hi, here is some other interesting stuff from my #curation http://t.co/Umc0katS #ELTchat

antoniaclare

11:20 PM

RT @theteacherjames: @stephenburrows Sometimes only a look is enough to remind them. #eltchat Yes, - the look, or pointing to an 's' sign

theteacherjames

11:20 PM

@Marisa_C @Shaunwilden My Brazilian student is always pronouncing 'i' as 'e'. Definitely fossilised. #ELTchat

stephenburrows

11:20 PM

#eltchat the type of group writing correction that is most useful tends to be on word order, rather than vocab/grammar/spelling etc

ljp2010

11:20 PM

@Marisa_C  #Eltchat Yes, 3rd person corrections instead of tone, appropricay, connotation.  It's much more superficial, easier too

Marisa_C

11:20 PM

RT @Shaunwilden: @Marisa_C @ljp2010  Is that because  grammatical ones are easier to handle #ELTchat > possibly or immed spotted

MarjorieRosenbe

11:20 PM

@theteacherjames This is where rapport comes in. If it is there correction is accepted. #eltchat

hartle

11:20 PM

RT @steven_odonnell: RT @steven_odonnell: #eltchat on writing tasks, i sometimes tell them "this time i'll be looking out for article usage" or such like - f ...

carlaarena

11:20 PM

@cioccas @antoniaclare Sts record. I give them feedback - recorded message & in written form. They start  perceiving errors #eltchat

shaznosel

11:20 PM

@Wiktor_K I like! Reflect on your mistake and understand why..#eltchat

louisealix68

11:20 PM

RT @steven_odonnell: #eltchat on writing tasks, i sometimes tell them .. focus on one error type > absolutely!

ljp2010

11:21 PM

@MarjorieRosenbe  #Eltchat  which means thye learner really has to want to make the change, right?

escocesa_madrid

11:21 PM

@David__Boughton yes, or writing a big 's' in the air #eltchat

SueAnnan

11:21 PM

@theteacherjames  you should hear my Portuguese sts ! #ELTchat

shaznosel

11:21 PM

@hartle @MarjorieRosenbe @Marisa_C Writing errors can be discussed after so ss do not lose fluency but in spkg...#eltchat

Shaunwilden

11:21 PM

@antoniaclare @theteacherjames @stephenburrows  Aha pointing to the 's' how many years did I fruitlessly do that :-) #ELTchat

David__Boughton

11:21 PM

@theteacherjames or a hand movement. I have a few u use. Past tense is a common one I use with the hand. #eltchat

theteacherjames

11:21 PM

@antoniaclare @stephenburrows That reminds me, I did a blog post about this: http://t.co/drRv67EZ Thanks! #eltchat

MarjorieRosenbe

11:21 PM

@antoniaclare but the pathways are set. Tough to rewire. #eltchat

Marisa_C

11:21 PM

@MarjorieRosenbe  #eltchat Agree fully - often correction judgmental and not very tactful or supportive

Shaunwilden

11:21 PM

@David__Boughton Oh ok sorry,  I always take tell as more like lecture sorry #ELTchat

theteacherjames

11:22 PM

@SueAnnan Let me guess, lots of "Last year, I work-id..."! #ELTchat

cioccas

11:22 PM

@carlaarena @antoniaclare ...  Thanks Carla, I haven't given feedback in both ways, can see the benefit.  #ELTchat

Marisa_C

11:22 PM

Lol I like the one abt foss errors like bad habits u can't get rid of -sound almost like an addiction - but truly they are not! #eltchat

antoniaclare

11:22 PM

RT @escocesa_madrid: @David__Boughton yes, or writing a big 's' in the air #eltchat

cioccas

11:22 PM

@carlaarena @antoniaclare  I was on a thread about self-awareness before :-)  #ELTchat

antoniaclare

11:22 PM

RT @ljp2010: @MarjorieRosenbe  #Eltchat  which means thye learner really has to want to make the change, right?

David__Boughton

11:23 PM

@escocesa_madrid what's the s for? Always like new ones. #eltchat

escocesa_madrid

11:23 PM

i think it's a good idea to draw learners' awareness to the idea of fossilized errors - maybe they can make their own list #eltchat

Shaunwilden

11:23 PM

RT @muranava: RT @muranava: any refs to recent review of research evidence about error correction? #eltchat

muranava

11:23 PM

any refs to recent review of research evidence about error correction? #eltchat

theteacherjames

11:23 PM

@SueAnnan Yup, I know them well. #ELTchat

SueAnnan

11:23 PM

@theteacherjames  in the parkie :-) #ELTchat

MarjorieRosenbe

11:24 PM

@Marisa_C But sts also ask for correction. I also ask them for German words. #eltchat

escocesa_madrid

11:24 PM

@David__Boughton 3rd person singular present simple - very common mistake amongst my spanish students #eltchat

theteacherjames

11:24 PM

@SueAnnan Yes, those sounds are really buried deep, it's really hard to tackle them. #ELTchat

stephenburrows

11:24 PM

@muranava #eltchat my main point of ref is "rules, patterns & words" by Willis, he sort of poo poos error correction, but it's opinion...

Marisa_C

11:24 PM

@cioccas true - be aware and beware!  #ELTchat

SueAnnan

11:24 PM

RT @antoniaclare: I think they R lk the bad habits, b/c oftn sts dont actually wnt 2 change. They have adopted the interlanguage #eltchat

shaznosel

11:24 PM

@antoniaclare @theteacherjames  We have an s posetr in the classroom..but this is a mistake not an error!!#eLTCHAT

mrmilessmith

11:24 PM

RT @TESOL_Assn: RT @TESOL_Assn: India to send 300 teachers to China to learn Mandarin - The National http://t.co/JsDTy1Nt #edchat #eltchat

antoniaclare

11:24 PM

I think they are like the bad habits, because often sts don't actually want to change.  They have adopted the interlanguage #eltchat

cioccas

11:24 PM

@Marisa_C But like an addiction, you have to know/admit you have a problem before you can move on to recovery :-) #ELTchat

SueAnnan

11:24 PM

@theteacherjames  my guys have lived here for more than 20 years though- nothing gets through #ELTchat

Marisa_C

11:24 PM

RT @knolinfos: @Marisa_C Hi, here is some other interesting stuff from my #curation http://t.co/xzU8aSeL  #ELTchat - some nice poster ideas

hartle

11:25 PM

#eltchat truly fossilised errors, like 3rd person s can't be "corrected" as st. Already "knows the rule". Sometimes using language works.

antoniaclare

11:25 PM

RT @stephenburrows: #eltchat I find err correction a really good way of demonstrating that as a teacher you're listening/paying attention

teacherthom

11:25 PM

@antoniaclare which is related to acculturation theory and the 'distance' between the learner and the target lang + culture #eltchat

stephenburrows

11:25 PM

#eltchat when I speak in another lang, I'm deseperate for native speakers to correct me

ljp2010

11:25 PM

#Eltchat So step one is wanting to make the change then.  Is it more effective to notice or have them pointed out?  And then what?

SueAnnan

11:25 PM

@escocesa_madrid  It's late aqcuired #eltchat

stephenburrows

11:25 PM

#eltchat I find err correction a really good way of demonstrating that as a teacher you're listening/paying attention

David__Boughton

11:25 PM

@Marisa_C would that lead to FEA? Fosilised errors anonymous. #eltchat

theteacherjames

11:26 PM

RT @steven_odonnell: @theteacherjames take your point, but won't not having a grasp of the basics ultimately impede communication? #eltchat

louisealix68

11:26 PM

I'm a firm believer in peer feedback (based on specific pre-determined criteria) #eltchat

SueAnnan

11:26 PM

@theteacherjames  Yep. Glad you can see where they are coming from :-) #ELTchat

David__Boughton

11:26 PM

@escocesa_madrid cool. You must have them trained on that one. #eltchat

Marisa_C

11:26 PM

RT @antoniaclare: @stephenburrows Yes, and students def want the teacher to correct them #eltchat > it's an expectation of course!

louisealix68

11:26 PM

RT @Marisa_C: RT @Marisa_C: Can we move to more ways of giving feedback and if this helps? #ELTchat - does FB make a difference to ALL Ls?

Marisa_C

11:26 PM

RT @David__Boughton: @Marisa_C would that lead to FEA? Fosilised errors anonymous. #eltchat? lol grab the web address ! :-D

theteacherjames

11:26 PM

@SueAnnan And sometimes the opposite is said Leaf pronounced leafy & leafy pronounced leaf! #ELTchat

Shaunwilden

11:26 PM

RT @Marisa_C: RT @Marisa_C: Can we move to more ways of giving feedback and if this helps? #ELTchat - does FB make a difference to ALL Ls?

antoniaclare

11:26 PM

@stephenburrows Yes, and students def want the teacher to correct them #eltchat

Shaunwilden

11:26 PM

@shaznosel  surely that depends on the def of mistake / error some interchange them, some say they are different #ELTchat

Marisa_C

11:26 PM

Can we move to more ways of giving feedback and if this helps? #ELTchat - does FB make a difference to ALL Ls?

Marisa_C

11:27 PM

@antoniaclare So some pronunciation errors are no errors at all - they come from a sense of retaining one's ethnicity  #eltchat

David__Boughton

11:27 PM

RT @Marisa_C: RT @Marisa_C: Can we move to more ways of giving feedback and if this helps? #ELTchat - does FB make a difference to ALL Ls?

antoniaclare

11:27 PM

Many learners want to keep their own identity, so they keep the mistakes.  It's part of who they are. #eltchat

stephenburrows

11:27 PM

#eltchat that communication doesn't have to be spoken, in written text, there are time and environmental pressures that contr to errors

ljp2010

11:27 PM

@stephenburrows   if i can communicate fluently i'm more than happy to fumble around!   how do you remember/learn the change? #Eltchat

David__Boughton

11:27 PM

RT @stephenburrows: RT @stephenburrows: #eltchat I find err correction a really good way of demonstrating that as a teacher you're listening/paying attention

Wiktor_K

11:27 PM

1 crazy idea from a translator trainer like me would be: more translation in class="more" l1 awareness = less fossilization. Eh? #eltchat

antoniaclare

11:27 PM

@teacherthom Indeed.  The French, I always think, don't actually want to sound British, so they keep their accent #eltchat

MarjorieRosenbe

11:27 PM

@antoniaclare @ljp2010 Exactly. It's up to them to want to improve. But they have to trust us to help. #eltchat

stephenburrows

11:27 PM

#eltchat but I agree with Willis that students are fully aware of errors they're making, but they're sacrificing communication for precision

antoniaclare

11:28 PM

RT @Marisa_C: So some pronunciation errors are no errors at all - they come from a sense of retaining one's ethnicity  #eltchat Exactly

theteacherjames

11:28 PM

@steven_odonnell My contention was that it would be problematic for native speakers. Only in ESL would this be true. #eltchat

Shaunwilden

11:29 PM

@Marisa_C Yes agreed, its imp to discuss it with them and show them that we all make errors #eltchat

theteacherjames

11:29 PM

@SueAnnan Well it's very useful when speaking Portuguese, I know how to sound! #ELTchat

David__Boughton

11:29 PM

@Marisa_C for starters, I am getting tired of peer correction. I know I need to like it, but always hassles and delays. #eltchat

louisealix68

11:29 PM

@antoniaclare @Marisa_C but after certain age, 0.001% chance of native pronunciation. So not all retaiing ethnicity #eltchat

teacherthom

11:29 PM

@antoniaclare what I don't get tho is b4 mentioned 30+ yrs in UK student spending hrs self-studying in library and getting nowhere! #eltchat

SueAnnan

11:29 PM

@Marisa_C  I ask students who have enough language to comment :-) #eltchat

escocesa_madrid

11:29 PM

Sometimes coming at a fossilized error from another angle helps eg.  pron of 3rd person sing. instead of just ofcussing on spelling #eltchat

MarjorieRosenbe

11:29 PM

@antoniaclare @teacherthom Non auditory sts have hard time imitating other accent. #eltchat smallest number  are auditory.

stephenburrows

11:29 PM

@ljp2010 #eltchat Hmm, I really want to know when I'm getting it wrong, even though I know the errors I make at the moment of communication

theteacherjames

11:29 PM

@steven_odonnell Communication with anyone is the priority (don't forget the #eltchat hashtag!)

Marisa_C

11:29 PM

Have you ever asked your learners about how they like to be corrected and if they find it useful? #eltchat - the HOW is important

steven_odonnell

11:30 PM

i sometimes tell ss my stories of errors i've made in Polish so they can take a step back to reflect on mistakes #eltchat

shaznosel

11:30 PM

@Marisa_C F/b for writing - easy but speaking is tricky....stop and butt in or correct after but when it is a big class- difficult! #eltchat

hartle

11:30 PM

RT @antoniaclare: RT @antoniaclare: Many learners want to keep their own identity, so they keep the mistakes.  It's part of who they are. #eltchat

Marisa_C

11:30 PM

@David__Boughton ok here we have a negative attitude to peer correction  #eltchat

SueAnnan

11:30 PM

@Marisa_C  Mine can't read or write at the moment :-( #eltchat

cioccas

11:30 PM

@Marisa_C Have had some Ss tell me they want me to correct everyone else's errors in class, but not their own! #ELTchat

Marisa_C

11:30 PM

@SueAnnan  #eltchat if not in theie own language? Google translate :-)

teacherthom

11:30 PM

@antoniaclare it's certainly not through lack of motivation! #eltchat

BrightAire

11:31 PM

@antoniaclare - agree. Non-standard English literacies can also be powerful literacies in students own cultures/contexts. #eltchat

Marisa_C

11:31 PM

RT @cioccas: @Marisa_C ... and others who want me to correct every error of their own! #ELTchat > a spotlight trained on them also?

stephenburrows

11:31 PM

@shaznosel @Marisa_C I always like to do "donut" speaking, I go round and note down errors or areas to improve #eltchat

teacherthom

11:31 PM

@MarjorieRosenbe @antoniaclare or at least difficult to quantify #eltchat

escocesa_madrid

11:31 PM

@steven_odonnell I do that too with older students - it definitely helps them become more aware #eltchat

ljp2010

11:31 PM

#Eltchat  i always hated to find mistakes in coursebook exercises but enjoyed working on own writing in spanish.  imp of personalisation?

SueAnnan

11:31 PM

@Marisa_C  trying!! #eltchat

teacherthom

11:31 PM

@MarjorieRosenbe @antoniaclare true + if there is resistance to target lang/culture it may be unconscious #eltchat

antoniaclare

11:31 PM

@teacherthom Difficult one #eltchat

cioccas

11:31 PM

@Marisa_C ... and others who want me to correct every error of their own! #ELTchat

Marisa_C

11:31 PM

@SueAnnan so early literacy stages?  #eltchat

louisealix68

11:31 PM

@Marisa_C @David__Boughton #eltchat but in large class is cost-effective and reduces FLanxiety

antoniaclare

11:32 PM

Getting sts to hear the difference is half of the battle #eltchat

David__Boughton

11:32 PM

@Marisa_C younger Ss can't do it maturely. Older students want teacher input. Add in inconcise feedback and there's my negativity. #eltchat

Marisa_C

11:32 PM

So making mistakes is a real communication stopper for Ss - I wonder if they don't make more out of anxiety #eltchat

hartle

11:32 PM

RT @David__Boughton I am getting tired of peer correction...but always hassles and delays. #eltchat ah, but learning takes time.

antoniaclare

11:32 PM

I like to focus on micro listening (short bits of repeated listening) to help work on pron issues (intonation, stress, rhythm) #eltchat

BrightAire

11:33 PM

Opps, meant "students'". Correct apostrophe use is powerful in this context. #eltchat

hartle

11:33 PM

#eltchat important when working in spok. Lang. To separate fluency work from accuracy work. Correction slots at the end need time & thout

shaznosel

11:33 PM

@Marisa_C Ls expect you to know how and don't question your methods..even adults..#eltchat

stephenburrows

11:33 PM

#eltchat something I'm wrestling with at the mo is in spoken activities I should be noting down errors or the almighty "emerging language"

Marisa_C

11:33 PM

Have you ever tried one to one moments of error correction tutorials? I would call them - Error Clinic - the Doctor in IN!!! #Eltchat

cioccas

11:33 PM

@Marisa_C  Yes, some love it, some hate it - sigh!  FB needs to be personalised & consider how S will feel if it's public #ELTchat

teacherthom

11:33 PM

@antoniaclare depressing in one way, inspirational in another. Watching sb who is prob always going to be a beginner trying so hard #eltchat

Shaunwilden

11:34 PM

@Marisa_C I think it is easier to give 1:1 help and advice these days given the proliferation of web and m tools #eltchat

louisealix68

11:34 PM

@David__Boughton #eltchat absolutely, therefore not every time. Variety is the spice...

escocesa_madrid

11:34 PM

@Marisa_C Never have - difficult with large classes. Could do it over a few lessons though. Thanks for the idea! #Eltchat

David__Boughton

11:34 PM

@louisealix68 but Ss may feel cheated with only peer correction. #eltchat

teacherthom

11:35 PM

@Marisa_C anxiety certainly plays a part #eltchat

MarjorieRosenbe

11:35 PM

@teacherthom @antoniaclare I've been here over 30 years & still have an accent in German. #eltchat

Marisa_C

11:35 PM

Highly recommend you read our previous #ELtchat summary on foss-zation - some great tips http://t.co/CLEMHTdY

louisealix68

11:35 PM

@David__Boughton #eltchat average class here 32 pupils so feedback valuable commodity (and time-consuming), so need to do 1xpeer, 1xteacher

teacherthom

11:35 PM

RT @antoniaclare: RT @antoniaclare: Getting sts to hear the difference is half of the battle #eltchat

David__Boughton

11:35 PM

@stephenburrows interesting. Expand please. #eltchat

hartle

11:35 PM

RT @David__Boughton: RT @David__Boughton: @louisealix68 but Ss may feel cheated with only peer correction. #eltchat

ljp2010

11:35 PM

@David__Boughton but who's most likely to correct them in the real world?  sts need to learn to see the value in peer correction  #Eltchat

antoniaclare

11:35 PM

@stephenburrows I think the emerging language is usually where the (new) errors are hidden. Where the learner is trying new lang #eltchat

antoniaclare

11:36 PM

@MarjorieRosenbe @teacherthom  That's right, and perhaps that's fine.   #eltchat

theteacherjames

11:36 PM

RT @SueAnnan: RT @SueAnnan: @MarjorieRosenbe  everyone has an accent. Does it matter if you are comprehensible? #eltchat

David__Boughton

11:36 PM

@hartle my professional students don't have time. They wouldn't like that answer. It's a balance for sure. #eltchat

ljp2010

11:36 PM

@MarjorieRosenbe i┬┤ll never lose my aussie accent in l2 - but then why should i?  #Eltchat

theteacherjames

11:36 PM

RT @Marisa_C: RT @Marisa_C: Highly recommend you read our previous #ELtchat summary on foss-zation - some great tips http://t.co/CLEMHTdY

hartle

11:36 PM

@David__Boughton #eltchat sorry retweeted hn ,eant to ask why, if you help thm to see wht is right by peer correctin. Where's the cheat?

cioccas

11:36 PM

@David__Boughton: @louisealix68  #eltchat Most of the Ss I've worked with hate peer correction - giving it and receiving it.

SueAnnan

11:36 PM

@MarjorieRosenbe  everyone has an accent. Does it matter if you are comprehensible? #eltchat

stephenburrows

11:36 PM

@David__Boughton #eltchat well, by focussing on errors, we're not helping learners progress, just highlighting what they're aware is wrong

Shaunwilden

11:37 PM

@cioccas am watchin aussie materchef at the mo - the rising intonation is doing my head in :-) #eltchat

stephenburrows

11:37 PM

@teacherthom @antoniaclare #eltchat how do we identify it's a step in the right direction? How do we know they don't know?

David__Boughton

11:37 PM

@ljp2010 nobody corrects them. That's why they came to me. If there bosses corrected them, they would be fine. #eltchat

antoniaclare

11:37 PM

My Italian accent is great (it was important to me), but my grammar is rubbish ( I wasn't so bothered about this).  It's a decision #eltchat

louisealix68

11:37 PM

@Marisa_C @ljp2010 @MarjorieRosenbe = and can you?#eltchat

Marisa_C

11:37 PM

RT @ljp2010: @MarjorieRosenbe i┬┤ll never lose my aussie accent in l2 - but then why should i?  #Eltchat > good question

shaznosel

11:37 PM

@hartle I love the idea of correction slots but not possible with big grps and 5 min turn around between lessons.#eltchat

cioccas

11:37 PM

RT @ljp2010: @MarjorieRosenbe i┬┤ll never lose my aussie accent in l2 - but then why should i?  #Eltchat <good onya mate! :-)

teacherthom

11:37 PM

@antoniaclare @stephenburrows in that case is it really an error? If it's just a step on the journey to the right word/phrase #eltchat

stephenburrows

11:37 PM

@David__Boughton #eltchat according to Willis, that is. According to dogmeticians, we pick up on "emerging language" but...

Marisa_C

11:38 PM

IGood idea to follow a tip in previous summary - each S creates an indiv journal of their errors & track progress #eltchat

cioccas

11:38 PM

@Shaunwilden Well, my #ELTchat interview would have done your head in too then (she says with rising intonation!) :-) #ELTchat

David__Boughton

11:38 PM

@louisealix68 definitely for that environment. #eltchat

ljp2010

11:38 PM

@Shaunwilden Does my head in as well!  Why do you think I left?!? ;-)  #Eltchat

theteacherjames

11:38 PM

@ljp2010 @MarjorieRosenbe I tell my sts you should speak English in your accent, but be comprehensible to everyone. That's the aim. #Eltchat

MarjorieRosenbe

11:38 PM

@antoniaclare I do games with them-we shout out words in chorus, move in rhythm to words, etc. #eltchat

MarjorieRosenbe

11:39 PM

@SueAnnan It's natural & people understand me but I have been speaking German longer than my sts. #eltchat

Marisa_C

11:39 PM

These journals can be brought out on occasion and Ss can monitor self or peers for progress #eltchat

antoniaclare

11:39 PM

@stephenburrows @teacherthom We need to be selective, focus on patterns #eltchat

louisealix68

11:39 PM

RT @Marisa_C:  each S creates an indiv journal of their errors & track progress #eltchat - yup, error logs proven essential!

David__Boughton

11:39 PM

@stephenburrows could u quickly explain the donuts activity you do? #eltchat

escocesa_madrid

11:39 PM

@Marisa_C Very important, just the act of writing down the errors helps #eltchat

cioccas

11:39 PM

@ljp2010 @Shaunwilden I'm guilty of that - didn't 'notice' until I recorded myself - now it's fossilised :-) #ELTchat

theteacherjames

11:39 PM

@antoniaclare Me too with my Brazilian Portuguese, although this wasn't really my choice! #eltchat

stephenburrows

11:39 PM

RT @Marisa_C: IGood idea to follow a tip in previous summary - each S creates an indiv journal of their errors & track progress #eltchat

SueAnnan

11:39 PM

@Marisa_C  we're learning how to write the alphabet letters at the mo #eltchat

antoniaclare

11:39 PM

@stephenburrows @teacherthom  I think it's worth focussing on erros that are common, easily dealt with, lead to useful lang focus #eltchat

antoniaclare

11:40 PM

@shaznosel @theteacherjames  OK, not always a choice ;) #eltchat

David__Boughton

11:40 PM

@hartle cheated with only peer correction. #eltchat

theteacherjames

11:40 PM

RT @Marisa_C: RT @Marisa_C: IGood idea to follow a tip in previous summary - each S creates an indiv journal of their errors & track progress #eltchat

stephenburrows

11:40 PM

@antoniaclare @teacherthom #eltchat I agree, errors are a great source of matrial

shaznosel

11:40 PM

@antoniaclare My greek accent is terrible and my grammar but i communicate!#eltchat

teacherthom

11:41 PM

@stephenburrows @antoniaclare over an extended period obviously #eltchat

hartle

11:41 PM

#eltchat with written work in big uni classes I post work  +correction code & stds can come to my office hours. http://t.co/4mIWT0qw

teacherthom

11:41 PM

@stephenburrows @antoniaclare error stops after correction = interlang. correction followed by repetition of error = fossilisation #eltchat

stephenburrows

11:41 PM

@David__Boughton #eltchat because task is repeating, i get chace to listen to every learner in class and can collect errors

SueAnnan

11:41 PM

RT @theteacherjames: @antoniaclare :-) Sometimes general incompetence comes into play! #eltchat

theteacherjames

11:41 PM

@antoniaclare :-) Sometimes general incompetence comes into play! #eltchat

shaznosel

11:41 PM

@toulasklavou @Marisa_C Especially with ss with learning diffiulties- great point #eltchat

stephenburrows

11:41 PM

@David__Boughton #eltchat speaking in pairs -> outer ring and inner ring -> inner ring change places after one speaking task -> task repeats

shaznosel

11:42 PM

@antoniaclare @theteacherjames So when time is limited..do we butt in and correct or ignore to encourage fluency #eltchat

stephenburrows

11:42 PM

#eltchat@teacherthom @antoniaclare I need to have that tattooed on my brain, excellent summary

ljp2010

11:42 PM

#Eltchat  @Marisa_C  and also when is the best time to do it?

Marisa_C

11:42 PM

RT @antoniaclare: Use different stages of the lesson, do some activities and demand absolute accuracy, other times let things pass #eltchat

David__Boughton

11:42 PM

@stephenburrows thanks. #eltchat

SueAnnan

11:42 PM

RT @Marisa_C: I think we shld also stress ways of dealing w/ error - sum Ts rlly pounce on EVERY single 1 of them #eltchat demoralising!

cioccas

11:42 PM

RT @theteacherjames: @antoniaclare @stephenburrows That reminds me, I did a blog post about this: http://t.co/WGZMYEfu Thanks! #eltchat

theteacherjames

11:42 PM

RT @Marisa_C: I think we should also stress ways of dealing with error - some Ts really pounce on EVERY single one of them #eltchat

escocesa_madrid

11:42 PM

RT @antoniaclare: RT @antoniaclare: Use different stages of the lesson, do some activities and demand absolute accuracy, other times let things pass #eltchat

antoniaclare

11:42 PM

Use different stages of the lesson, do some activities and demand absolute accuracy, other times let things pass #eltchat

Marisa_C

11:42 PM

I think we should also stress ways of dealing with error - some Ts really pounce on EVERY single one of them #eltchat

escocesa_madrid

11:43 PM

highlight a few errors at a time - don't overwhelm. For fossilized errors focus on 1 at a time - learners need time to assimilate #eltchat

theteacherjames

11:43 PM

@shaznosel @antoniaclare We have to decide what is important & deal with that. Then we can move onto the next. #eltchat

cioccas

11:43 PM

RT @Marisa_C: RT @Marisa_C: @antoniaclare  #eltchat I think it's also important to alert Ss when accuracy is important and when it's not

teacherthom

11:43 PM

@antoniaclare @stephenburrows defo. the example I was using b4 is an extreme case. Lots of merit in fb/correction #eltchat

Marisa_C

11:43 PM

@antoniaclare  #eltchat I think it's also important to alert Ss when accuracy is important and when it's not

antoniaclare

11:43 PM

RT @Marisa_C: I think we shld also stress ways of dealing w/ error - sum Ts rlly pounce on EVERY single 1 of them #eltchat demoralising!

theteacherjames

11:43 PM

@Marisa_C The absolute worst way to deal with fossilised errors. #eltchat

theteacherjames

11:44 PM

RT @antoniaclare: RT @antoniaclare: Also remind sts if they are not making mistakes, they're not learning #eltchat

cioccas

11:44 PM

@escocesa_madrid Yes, focus on one fossilised error at a time - it has to be slow and steady to work I think #ELTchat

Marisa_C

11:44 PM

Is there any published research that you could share on the effect of correction on language acquisition? #eltchat

David__Boughton

11:44 PM

#eltchat. Gotta go. Thanks as always. You guys are the best professional development out there.

antoniaclare

11:44 PM

Also remind sts if they are not making mistakes, they're not learning #eltchat

MarjorieRosenbe

11:44 PM

I give out grid for grading with points so they know if they need to work on vocab, grammar, cohesion, etc. #eltchat

escocesa_madrid

11:44 PM

RT @SueAnnan: Sts can't learn if they feel stressed #ELTchat - so true!

SueAnnan

11:44 PM

Sts can't learn if they feel stressed #ELTchat

cunningcanis

11:44 PM

RT @theteacherjames: RT @theteacherjames: New Uncut #ELTchat podcast now online! @vickyloras speaks to @naomishema: http://t.co/f1ESEtxK

shaznosel

11:45 PM

@Marisa_C @antoniaclare Yes..alert ss to errors and override some mistakes and mention why important.#eltchat

vickyloras

11:45 PM

@antoniaclare Also remind sts if they are not making mistakes, they're not learning #eltchat // absolutely, very encouraging

SueAnnan

11:45 PM

@Marisa_C  there's a bit that Krashen does on an old video with Defense Lan school ( can find on Youtube) #eltchat

Marisa_C

11:45 PM

RT @ljp2010: @cioccas  Yes, like a personal challenge - "Today I won't say..."  #Eltchat > like that one

hartle

11:45 PM

RT @SueAnnan: RT @Marisa_C: I think we shld also stress ways of dealing w/ error... #eltchat demoralising! absolutely. Ts shd communicate 2

Shaunwilden

11:45 PM

ok guys migraine is winning so I have to duck out, see you all next week #eltchat

ljp2010

11:45 PM

@cioccas  Yes, like a personal challenge - "Today I won't say..."  #Eltchat

theteacherjames

11:45 PM

@David__Boughton Cheers David, thanks for coming along. #eltchat

cioccas

11:45 PM

RT @David__Boughton: #eltchat. Gotta go. Thanks as always. You guys are the best professional development out there. < Definitely agree! Bye

toulasklavou

11:45 PM

@theteacherjames @antoniaclare & since it's everyone's right to learn Engl,  we can't discourage'em by correcting the 's'#eltchat

vickyloras

11:46 PM

RT @Marisa_C: RT @Marisa_C: RT @ljp2010: @cioccas  Yes, like a personal challenge - "Today I won't say..."  #Eltchat > like that one

MarjorieRosenbe

11:46 PM

I also give out reward stickers when they do sth right. They are a big hit with all age groups. #eltchat

antoniaclare

11:46 PM

@Marisa_C There are a few links here on SLA and error correction http://t.co/qJF8vZbQ #eltchat

cioccas

11:46 PM

@Shaunwilden:  #eltchat Oh, was that my rising intonation did that?!  :-( Take care Shaun, see you next week.

Marisa_C

11:46 PM

@SueAnnan  #eltchat pls share

hartle

11:47 PM

#eltchat error correction also needs to be balanced with praise for gd language use and progress being made, 2 build confidence etc.

steven_odonnell

11:47 PM

#eltchat how to best equip our ss to overcome fossilsation? need for greater awareneess seems clear. Critical thinking anyone?

teacherthom

11:47 PM

@Marisa_C got some on acculturation theory, interlanguage and integrative motivation if that's any use? #eltchat

TESOL_Assn

11:47 PM

Scotland: Scottish man dies, taking town's dialect with him - The Mainichi http://t.co/9EC56EAt #edchat #eltchat #linguistics

shaznosel

11:47 PM

@toulasklavou @theteacherjames @antoniaclare so ignore incompetence! #eltchat

stephenburrows

11:48 PM

@hartle #eltchat I often try to include "good language" in error correction activities, but learners just get confused

escocesa_madrid

11:48 PM

For  young learners turn fossilised errors into a chant or find a song with examples of the language - memorable repetition! #eltchat

MarjorieRosenbe

11:48 PM

@theteacherjames @ljp2010 agree. #eltchat

theteacherjames

11:48 PM

@hartle @shaznosel @antoniaclare I think we also have to choose our interruptions very carefully. I like non-verbal signals. #eltchat

lauraahaha

11:48 PM

@lisa_esl Sounds OK to me! #eltchat

cioccas

11:48 PM

@Marisa_C @ljp2010 Yes, and I like to focus on an error that we've been working on (indiv  and/or class) - Ss seem to respond too. #ELTchat

lisa_esl

11:48 PM

Is it ok to use the modal 'have to' in the past perfect? "I had had to blah blah before blah blah"  or "If I had had to..." #eltchat

TESOL_Assn

11:49 PM

Understanding accents: Effective communication is about more than simply pronunciation - Medicalxpress http://t.co/jb3aHMc9 #eltchat #edchat

ljp2010

11:49 PM

#Eltchat  s.o. once said they hated the error "la problema" in spanish so i've always been hyperconscious of it.  tell sts what we hate!?

theteacherjames

11:49 PM

@cioccas @hartle @shaznosel @antoniaclare Thanks, it really worked! #ELTchat

antoniaclare

11:49 PM

RT @stephenburrows: @hartle #eltchat I often try to include "good language" in error correction activities>me too, but needs to be clear ;)

Marisa_C

11:49 PM

RT @escocesa_madrid: For  YLs turn fossilised errors into chant or find  song with examples of the language - memorable repetition! #eltchat

cioccas

11:49 PM

@theteacherjames @hartle @shaznosel @antoniaclare Yes James, I like your apple idea - http://t.co/WGZMYEfu -hadn't thought of that #ELTchat

Wiktor_K

11:49 PM

http://t.co/fW9UDdwA this article suggests that correction works. Woohoo! #eltchat

Marisa_C

11:49 PM

@teacherthom yes pls if relevant  #eltchat

Marisa_C

11:50 PM

RT @Wiktor_K: http://t.co/TjtMUqjV  this article suggests that correction works. Woohoo! #eltchat great - can read online

shaznosel

11:50 PM

@theteacherjames @hartle @antoniaclare Me too! or look at the's' poster or expand for the 'ing' by using fingers, #eltchat

leoselivan

11:50 PM

#eltchat is it almost over?

TESOL_Assn

11:51 PM

Weighing Ethical Issues in International Recruitment - The Chronicle of Higher Education http://t.co/zJtzLgJJ #eltchat #esl #efl #ell

theteacherjames

11:51 PM

@escocesa_madrid Has anyone mentioned drilling & repetitions as a way of dealing with fossilised errors? Does it work? #eltchat

antoniaclare

11:51 PM

RT @Marisa_C: RT @Wiktor_K: http://t.co/PekKFNsR  this article suggests that correction works. Woohoo! #eltchat great - can read online

escocesa_madrid

11:51 PM

Maybe give them alternative ways of saying something if they're always making the same mistake - or is that cheating?! #eltchat

hartle

11:51 PM

@theteacherjames  I like non-verbal signals. #eltchat yes, or written correction codes later to give ss time to think.

hartle

11:52 PM

RT @stephenburrows: @hartle #eltchat .  I use colour coded, symbols etc. look at docs he http://t.co/4rPf9ki8

theteacherjames

11:52 PM

@leoselivan 10 min to go Leo, get involved! #eltchat

steven_odonnell

11:52 PM

#eltchat also important to avoid negative words like mistake, error,problem. instead 'how could you say that better'? or 'fix this sentence'

escocesa_madrid

11:52 PM

@theteacherjames With young learners it usually works - chants and songs rather than dry drilling though. #eltchat

theteacherjames

11:53 PM

RT @escocesa_madrid: RT @escocesa_madrid: @theteacherjames With young learners it usually works - chants and songs rather than dry drilling though. #eltchat

Marisa_C

11:53 PM

RT @steven_odonnell: #eltchat also imp to avoid negative words like mistake,error,problem.'how could you say that better'?

teacherthom

11:53 PM

@Marisa_C acculturation theory - Schumann 1978. Case study of low proficiency US immigrant, well worth a read #eltchat

theteacherjames

11:53 PM

@escocesa_madrid That sounds very sensible to me. A form of interesting drill! #eltchat

escocesa_madrid

11:53 PM

@theteacherjames Then you can always refer to the chant or drill, as a way of encouraging self-correction. #eltchat

shaznosel

11:53 PM

@Marisa_C @escocesa_madrid Chants so useful for pronunciation with fun but must be memorable and 'catchy' #eltchat

theteacherjames

11:54 PM

@steven_odonnell Agreed. I'm all about 'feedback' not 'error correction', 'try this again' not 'wrong'. #eltchat

SueAnnan

11:54 PM

http://t.co/uU1dHjYu quite interesting. Still looking for the Krashen one #ELTchat

Wiktor_K

11:54 PM

Fossilized lg for me is just lg that takes longer to become good enough. Some Ts grow impatient at it, it is just organic growth #eltchat

hartle

11:54 PM

RT @steven_odonnell: #eltchat also important to avoid negative words... I talk about "areas 2 work on" and ss say "oh, mistakes?"

TESOL_Assn

11:54 PM

Arkansas District Asks Former ELLs to Return as Bilingual Teachers - Education Week http://t.co/uITKcrJU #eltchat #bilingualed #esl #ell

MarjorieRosenbe

11:55 PM

@escocesa_madrid also with older learners. #eltchat

shaznosel

11:55 PM

@Marisa_C @steven_odonnell Let's repeat....make it a joke..#eltchat

Marisa_C

11:55 PM

@steven_odonnell  #eltchat http://t.co/q11V7595  colleague psychologist here claiming same - not error but a lesson - interesting post

stephenburrows

11:55 PM

RT @theteacherjames: RT @theteacherjames: @steven_odonnell Agreed. I'm all about 'feedback' not 'error correction', 'try this again' not 'wrong'. #eltchat

Marisa_C

11:56 PM

@teacherthom  #eltchat thanks :-)

SueAnnan

11:56 PM

@Marisa_C  too busy. Next week maybe #ELTchat

Marisa_C

11:56 PM

Five minutes to go and I have brought out my binoculars looking for a SUMMARY WRITER!!!! #ELTchat needs you

teacherthom

11:56 PM

@Marisa_C interlanguage - Selinker 1969, 1972. Barmy as a barn owl apparently but he did coin the phrase so prob worth a look #eltchat

escocesa_madrid

11:56 PM

RT @escocesa_madrid: Can we admit defeat if the error seems to be too fossilised? Give the student alternatives. What do you think? #eltchat

hartle

11:56 PM

#eltchat night night everyone, have to go to bed now. Thnx for good discussion, as always :-)

SueAnnan

11:57 PM

@stephenburrows  good man:-) #eltchat

europaschool

11:57 PM

@antoniaclare don't think should ever let ss errors go #eltchat

stephenburrows

11:57 PM

@Marisa_C #eltchat I don't mind giving it a go this week

CELT_Athens

11:57 PM

RT @Marisa_C: Five minutes to go and I have brought out my binoculars looking for a SUMMARY WRITER!!!! #ELTchat needs you

fionamau

11:57 PM

I wanted to take part in #eltchat tonight but unfortunately children took over my plans :( Hopefully next week.

europaschool

11:57 PM

@antoniaclare don't think should let things go ever #eltchat

theteacherjames

11:58 PM

One last blog post about recording your sts for self correction & helping them spot things to work on: http://t.co/D08e1biu #eltchat

stephenburrows

11:58 PM

@Marisa_C #eltchat Thanks

antoniaclare

11:58 PM

@europaschool Really?  You can't correct every error a student makes, surely?! #eltchat

MarjorieRosenbe

11:58 PM

Thanks everyone for chat. #eltchat

leoselivan

11:58 PM

the article @antoniaclare shared refers to famous Grammar Correction debate & Truscott's claims that corrective FB isn't effective #eltchat

Marisa_C

11:58 PM

@stephenburrows  #eltchat Lovely! Thank you! Will get you transcript soon

Wiktor_K

11:59 PM

Thanks everyone, inspiring stuff. See ya! #eltchat

Marisa_C

11:59 PM

Did we make any mistakes during this #eltchat, anyone?

europaschool

11:59 PM

@shaznosel @antoniaclare @theteacherjames teachers shouldn't correct, must make ss aware to correct themselves #eltchat

escocesa_madrid

11:59 PM

Thanks for the discussion everyone. Good night! #eltchat

ljp2010

11:59 PM

#Eltchat got dragged away at the end :-(  great chat tho, thx all!!!

cioccas

11:59 PM

RT @antoniaclare: @europaschool Really?  You can't correct every error a student makes, surely?! #eltchat <I don't think so, even 1-1

antoniaclare

11:59 PM

@stephenburrows That's great #eltchat

Marisa_C

11:59 PM

RT @SusanDreger: @Marisa_C I think its more important to focus  on fluency but it depends on context #eltchat

SueAnnan

12:00 AM

@Marisa_C  okay den :-) #eltchat

cioccas

12:00 AM

Thanks everyone for another terrific #ELTchat - time for breakfast now, here in Canberra, Australia :-)

SueAnnan

12:00 AM

RT @SueAnnan: Night everyone. Thanks for a lively discussion as always- great moderators :-) #ELTchat

Marisa_C

12:00 AM

@SueAnnan Pobody's Nerfect - as a said erlier  #eltchat

antoniaclare

12:00 AM

@Marisa_C Oh I hope so, nothing like an error or two to keep a teacher happy ;) #eltchat

theteacherjames

12:00 AM

@Marisa_C Highly unlikely! #eltchat

europaschool

12:00 AM

@cioccas @antoniaclare of course you can unless elementary level or below #eltchat

SueAnnan

12:00 AM

@Marisa_C  loads of typso #eltchat

SueAnnan

12:01 AM

@Marisa_C  shame you aren't going to Paris. Would see you sooner  #eltchat

stephenburrows

12:01 AM

#eltchat @shaznosel @Marisa_C My other half is out of town - life's easy right now!

Marisa_C

12:01 AM

Thank you all for joining - great #eltchat and a good buzz was had by all - see you next week

antoniaclare

12:01 AM

RT @SueAnnan: Night everyone. Thanks for a lively discussion as always- great moderators :-) #ELTchat Yes, thanks all ;)

TESOL_Assn

12:01 AM

U.S. Census: Private School Enrollment Continues to Fall - Inside School Research - Education Week http://t.co/L140v1bH #edchat #eltchat

Marisa_C

12:01 AM

@SueAnnan si yu suun :-)  #eltchat

shaznosel

12:01 AM

@stephenburrows @Marisa_C Weell done stephen! Too many teaching hours for me..I ll write when you're busy! #eltchat

Marisa_C

12:02 AM

@SueAnnan going to Belgrade and then Istanbul  #eltchat

antoniaclare

12:02 AM

RT @theteacherjames: blog post about recording sts for self correction & helping sts spot things to work on: http://t.co/b3djvMvO #eltchat

theteacherjames

12:02 AM

Thanks everyone, see you next week. Meanwhile enjoy this new uncut #eltchat podcast with @vickyloras & @naomishema http://t.co/kNK1ktRs

Marisa_C

12:02 AM

@stephenburrows  Lol  caught u at a great moment for a summary - looking forward to reading it :-) #eltchat

teacherthom

12:02 AM

#eltchat thanks and goodnight!

 

 

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