| username |
time |
status |
| teflgeek |
12:00 PM |
Morning all #eltchat |
| Shaunwilden |
12:00 PM |
Ready, steady...The 12 BST #eltchat is Do you teach grammar explicitly? If so, how? if not, why not? Hi everyone |
| AlexandraKouk |
12:01 PM |
RT @antoniaclare: For the next hour I'll also be in the #ELTchat discussion on #grammar. Catherine Walter's article is a starting point. ... |
| ElkySmith |
12:01 PM |
RT @antoniaclare: For the next hour I'll also be in the #ELTchat discussion on #grammar. Catherine Walter's article is a starting point. ... |
| ElkySmith |
12:01 PM |
#eltchat Evening all. |
| antoniaclare |
12:01 PM |
For the next hour I'll also be in the #ELTchat discussion on #grammar. Catherine Walter's article is a starting point. http://t.co/x1TUJvTV |
| cioccas |
12:02 PM |
@worldteacher I found the comments most interesting - lack of references and solid evidence #ELTchat |
| teflgeek |
12:02 PM |
@worldteacher It was interesting, but I don't know if I've eveer avoided teaching grammar (apart from on my CELTA) #eltchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:02 PM |
RT @Shaunwilden: Your pre-#eltchat reading is the article that prompted the topic http://t.co/GDykqty8 |
| teacherphili |
12:02 PM |
@CathyTurner16 thnx for that mention! #ELTchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:02 PM |
Hi everyone #eltchat |
| ElkySmith |
12:02 PM |
Yes, I do. #eltchat |
| worldteacher |
12:02 PM |
So what did everyone think of the article that sparked this #eltchat? |
| louisealix68 |
12:03 PM |
Hi there all "eltchatters". I do teach it explicitly - sometimes, but not always. Depends. #eltchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:03 PM |
@ShetlandESOL Hi1 #eltchat |
| ShetlandESOL |
12:03 PM |
Hello everyone! #eltchat |
| MissLadyCaz |
12:03 PM |
Time to stop avoiding grammar rules http://t.co/yHkGA8tT via @guardian The #eltchat pre-reading. |
| teacherphili |
12:03 PM |
Agreed with comments so far about the lack of evidence/quoted sources despite it being the basis of the article #ELTchat |
| teflerinha |
12:03 PM |
#eltchat My experience with #esol is that a lot of teachers do avoid teaching grammar explicitly..partly a q of avoiding metalanguage |
| AlexandraKouk |
12:03 PM |
By teaching grammar "explicitly" do we mean inductive vs. deductive method? #ELTchat |
| Shaunwilden |
12:03 PM |
If you are new , need help etc call upon me, @theteacherjames or @BrunoELT who are mods today #eltchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:03 PM |
RT @worldteacher: So what did everyone think of the article that sparked this #eltchat? |
| louisealix68 |
12:04 PM |
@teflerinha Time and 'complexity'. 2 hours a week in secondary here and demand high teaching #eltchat |
| worldteacher |
12:04 PM |
RT @teflgeek: RT @Shaunwilden: Your pre-#eltchat reading is the article that prompted the topic http://t.co/izwEtpDM @BrunoELT Here it is! |
| Shaunwilden |
12:04 PM |
Ok so how are we defining explicitly? #eltchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:04 PM |
RT @teacherphili: Agreed with comments so far about the lack of evidence/quoted sources despite it being the basis of the article #ELTchat |
| Shaunwilden |
12:04 PM |
@louisealix68 I think depends is the answer I would choose as well #eltchat |
| cioccas |
12:04 PM |
@AlexandraKouk I'm assuming both - ANY explicit teaching of grammar #ELTchat |
| teflerinha |
12:04 PM |
@louisealix68 What does it depend on? #eltchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:04 PM |
RT @Shaunwilden: If you are new , need help etc call upon me, @theteacherjames or @BrunoELT who are mods today #eltchat |
| Shaunwilden |
12:04 PM |
@BrunoELT http://t.co/q3Fqwtz1 #eltchat |
| teflgeek |
12:05 PM |
Is "explicit grammar teaching" just telling the learners "we're going to do some grammar today"? "#eltchat |
| louisealix68 |
12:05 PM |
I wld interpret "explicit" as deductive or inductive followed by deductive. #eltchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:05 PM |
RT @Shaunwilden: Ok so how are we defining explicitly? #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:05 PM |
RT @Shaunwilden: Ok so how are we defining explicitly? #eltchat> Good point |
| worldteacher |
12:06 PM |
@cioccas References given in comments after the article. Evidence not as solid as article suggested. #eltchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:06 PM |
@antoniaclare That doesn't mean it's the best way though, does it? #eltchat |
| teflgeek |
12:06 PM |
as opposed to teaching grammar by stealth (la la la la la la look now you know some grammar) ? #eltchat |
| KathleenDrew5 |
12:06 PM |
@WebsSam #eltchat |
| AlexandraKouk |
12:06 PM |
RT @teflerinha: #eltchat Does anyone teach in a way where grammar is not commented on, but ss pick it up 'naturally'? |
| michaelegriffin |
12:06 PM |
Im sadly not able to participate in #ELTchat but im honestly not sure what ppl mean when they say "grammar" "teach" "teach grammar" and all! |
| stiiiv |
12:06 PM |
RT @louisealix68: I wld interpret "explicit" as deductive or inductive followed by deductive. #eltchat |
| AlexandraKouk |
12:06 PM |
it's not just writing rules on the WB - right? #eltchat |
| louisealix68 |
12:06 PM |
non-explicit to me would be eg via chunks #eltchat |
| ShetlandESOL |
12:06 PM |
@teflerinha @Shaunwilden With explicit reference to grammatical terms and rules, perhaps? #eltchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:06 PM |
RT @teflgeek: Is "explicit grammar teaching" just telling the learners "we're going to do some grammar today"? "#eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:06 PM |
#eltchat Does anyone teach in a way where grammar is not commented on, but ss pick it up 'naturally'? |
| esolcourses |
12:06 PM |
Hi everyone! #eltchat I'm not a fan of teaching explicit grammar, & only do it if need arises - prefer to slip it in the mix, tbh #eltchat |
| antoniaclare |
12:06 PM |
#eltchat I think the reality is that most Ts and Sts still want and teach/study grammar in and out of class. never went out of fashion |
| ElkySmith |
12:06 PM |
Explicitly: using metalanguage, writing TL on WB, highlighting, underlining, explaining, providing additional e.g.s #eltchat |
| worldteacher |
12:06 PM |
@teflgeek Me neither - I've always taught grammar explicitly. #eltchat |
| teflgeek |
12:07 PM |
RT @cioccas: I find Ss want grammar explicitly/visibly /directly taught more than Ts #ELTchat - same here! |
| Marisa_C |
12:07 PM |
Hello everyone!!! Just got out of class - lucky to be free this lunchtime!!!! Will cath up I hope #eltchat - ask me for help if you are new |
| theteacherjames |
12:07 PM |
@esolcourses Me too, but that's not really a surprise is it? ;-) #eltchat |
| Shaunwilden |
12:07 PM |
RT @cioccas: I find Ss want grammar explicitly/visibly /directly taught more than Ts #ELTchat |
| louisealix68 |
12:07 PM |
RT @worldteacher: @cioccas References given in comments after the article. Evidence not as solid as article suggested. #eltchat |
| worldteacher |
12:07 PM |
@louisealix68 What does it depend on? #eltchat |
| ShetlandESOL |
12:07 PM |
@teflerinha Nope. I work with adult learners, and they are generally keen to feel they are taking away some concrete gram knowledge #eltchat |
| cioccas |
12:07 PM |
I find Ss want grammar explicitly/visibly /directly taught more than Ts #ELTchat |
| teflerinha |
12:07 PM |
@ShetlandESOL @Shaunwilden #eltchat U see, I wonder if you can draw ss atten to grammar without using grammatical terminology? |
| Shaunwilden |
12:07 PM |
The article "Teaching grammar explicitly is more effective than not teaching it, or than teaching it implicitly; that is now clear."#eltchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:08 PM |
@teflgeek That's my way, without the lalala! #eltchat |
| Marisa_C |
12:08 PM |
Ss' desire for explicit grammar instruction cloely linked to Ts' thinking explicit teaching is what their job all about #ELTchat |
| worldteacher |
12:08 PM |
RT @ElkySmith: Explicitly: using metalanguage, writing TL on WB, highlighting, underlining, explaining, providing additional e.g.s #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:08 PM |
@ShetlandESOL #eltchat I agree in my exp 2- but know some ts who don't refer to grammar at all |
| louisealix68 |
12:08 PM |
@worldteacher "shit" rule is easy to teach deductively and quickly and easy to learn. #eltchat |
| teacherphili |
12:08 PM |
RT @Shaunwilden: I find Ss want grammar explicitly/visibly/directly taught more than Ts #ELTchat -> often when they have exams approaching |
| ElkySmith |
12:08 PM |
@cioccas Yes, but there's a sense that 'Ss don't know what's good for 'em and explicit grammar instr'n isn't it'! #eltchat |
| AlexandraKouk |
12:08 PM |
it can't be just a matter of using terminology or not - how about priming and scaffolding activities? Are they too explicit? #ELTchat |
| waykatewit |
12:08 PM |
RT @cioccas: I find Ss want grammar explicitly/visibly /directly taught more than Ts #ELTchat |
| antoniaclare |
12:09 PM |
@theteacherjames No, I don't think we can ever say that's the best way. Will differ for each student #eltchat |
| Marisa_C |
12:09 PM |
So having established what we mean by "explicit' - is it good to do that with YL's or can we specify which age range got #ELTchat |
| teflerinha |
12:09 PM |
@theteacherjames @teflgeek But isn't that still explicit..but more discovery/contextualised etc? #eltchat |
| worldteacher |
12:09 PM |
RT @antoniaclare: #eltchat I think the reality is that most Ts and Sts still want grammar in and out of class. never went out of fashion>Yes |
| cioccas |
12:09 PM |
RT @ElkySmith: Yes, but there's a sense that 'Ss don't know what's good for 'em and explicit grammar instr'n isn't it'! #eltchat < :-) |
| theteacherjames |
12:10 PM |
@Shaunwilden My problem with this is the premise that it is 'clear'. I'll follow the evidence, but I'm not convinced at the mo. #eltchat |
| waykatewit |
12:10 PM |
RT @teflerinha: @theteacherjames @teflgeek But isn't that still explicit..but more discovery/contextualised etc? #eltchat |
| Marisa_C |
12:10 PM |
@michelleworgan Yes it's explicit #eltchat |
| louisealix68 |
12:10 PM |
contd.... now notice some kids like. Teacher needs to see individual requirements. #eltchat |
| michaelegriffin |
12:10 PM |
RT @Marisa_C: Ss' desire for explicit grammar instruction cloely linked to Ts' thinking explicit teaching is what their job all about #E ... |
| esolcourses |
12:10 PM |
@theteacherjames LOL! No - I suppose it isn't ;-) Was taught explicit grammar at school for MFL's - passed exams but fnd it dull! #eltchat |
| Shaunwilden |
12:10 PM |
@waykatewit @teflerinha @ShetlandESOL It can be a bit much at times esp if sts dont know it #eltchat |
| louisealix68 |
12:10 PM |
Personally hated grammar lessons so used to avoid as a teacher (as S Borg wld expect) - contd..#eltchat |
| teacherphili |
12:10 PM |
@teflgeek stealth teaching? Is that when it creeps up on you without the students realising? #ELTchat |
| teflerinha |
12:10 PM |
@waykatewit @ShetlandESOL @Shaunwilden Nothing with some ss but 4 those with little education in 1st lang might be overwhelming #eltchat |
| Phoenixarc |
12:10 PM |
RT @teflgeek: RT @cioccas: I find Ss want grammar explicitly/visibly /directly taught more than Ts #ELTchat - same here! |
| michelleworgan |
12:10 PM |
#eltchat Hi all, I usually ask for or give examples of grammar and try to get stts to notice the rules/differences(features - is itexplicit? |
| MissLadyCaz |
12:10 PM |
I find that you can embed explicit tching of grammar within the context of good texts and relevant learning experiences. #eltchat |
| worldteacher |
12:10 PM |
@esolcourses Sue, in my teaching context I have to teach explicitly - discovery method wouldn't work in Vietnam! #eltchat |
| Shaunwilden |
12:10 PM |
RT @antoniaclare: @theteacherjames No, I don't think we can ever say that's the best way. Will differ for each student #eltchat |
| michelleworgan |
12:11 PM |
I learnt L2 grammar by exposure not rules, however I didn't have to pass an exam unlike my sts! #eltchat |
| teflgeek |
12:11 PM |
@teflerinha fair point. So EGT is when you deliberately set out to teach a specific language point, regardless of how you teach it #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:11 PM |
RT @worldteacher: @teflerinha Never had any success with the 'natural' way - would be interested to hear from anyone who has! #eltchat >me 2 |
| Shaunwilden |
12:11 PM |
@theteacherjames sorry lost thread prob with what? #eltchat |
| ElkySmith |
12:11 PM |
@BrunoELT No, I haven't had that experience. I think students crave clarity and being explicit about gr, aims, etc. provides that. #eltchat |
| ChrisGyford |
12:11 PM |
While so many local exams are designed to test explicit understanding of grammar what choice do we have? #eltchat |
| Marisa_C |
12:11 PM |
@ManosSY hya good to see u too even tho from afaaaaaaar #ELTchat |
| waykatewit |
12:11 PM |
RT @michelleworgan: #eltchat Hi all, I usually ask for or give examples of grammar and try to get stts to notice the rules/differences(f ... |
| worldteacher |
12:11 PM |
@teflerinha Never had any success with the 'natural' way - would be interested to hear from anyone who has! #eltchat |
| stiiiv |
12:11 PM |
Also need to consider age of learners. Explicit (deductive) teaching of grammar requires cognitive maturity #eltchat |
| louisealix68 |
12:12 PM |
@antoniaclare absolutely - but what is "young" #eltchat |
| teacherphili |
12:12 PM |
RT @teflgeek: @teacherphili it's when you teach grammar without you or the students realising you've done it ;) #eltchat > thought, so. thx. |
| Marisa_C |
12:12 PM |
RT @antoniaclare: @Marisa_C I don't think explicit grammar is v effective for YL. And usually it bores them too #eltchat > Fully agree |
| teflerinha |
12:12 PM |
@michelleworgan #eltchat And presumably you had a lot of exposure- not a couple of lessons a week etc |
| antoniaclare |
12:12 PM |
@Marisa_C I don't think explicit grammar is v effective for YL. And usually it bores them too #eltchat |
| Shaunwilden |
12:12 PM |
@BrunoELT Yes agreed #eltchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:12 PM |
@teflerinha @teflgeek fair point, but I think how we arrive at that point is really integral to the explicit/implicit approach. #eltchat |
| teflgeek |
12:12 PM |
@teacherphili it's when you teach grammar without you or the students realising you've done it ;) #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:12 PM |
@michelleworgan @waykatewit For me that's explicit- and nothing wrong with it either..I think the contrast is the natural approach #eltchat |
| Marisa_C |
12:12 PM |
@ChrisGyford just be explicit at exam prep stage - which is NOT throughout the year #eltchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:13 PM |
@antoniaclare Absolutely, just putting it out there :-) #eltchat |
| Marisa_C |
12:13 PM |
Explicit too conceptually difficult for YL's - tell them what they CAN DO with this language rather than what language IS #ELTchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:13 PM |
@teflerinha @teflgeek Nobody is saying grammar shouldn't be taught at all, so I don't see how that could be seen as explicit. #eltchat |
| ElkySmith |
12:13 PM |
Re. metalanguage, it's one of an array of tools forhelping Ss understand otherwise opaque linguistic feature. #eltchat |
| michelleworgan |
12:13 PM |
Funny how with YL grammar is rarely taught explicitly but with teens and adults it almost always is! #eltchat |
| Shaunwilden |
12:13 PM |
@waykatewit Yes agreed but it can be off putting think about how much metalanguage a beginner has to cope with! #eltchat |
| esolcourses |
12:13 PM |
@worldteacher yes, accept that in some contexts you have to teach in a certain way. Although there is 'explicit' and 'explicit' :) #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:13 PM |
RT @antoniaclare: @Marisa_C I don't think explicit grammar is v effective for YL. And usually it bores them too #eltchat |
| ElkySmith |
12:14 PM |
@BrunoELT #eltchat Yes, but there are plenty of mistakes that Ts can make which overwhelm Ss :-) |
| MissLadyCaz |
12:14 PM |
@Marisa_C @ChrisGyford Wouldn't it be more relevant to use explicit teaching alongside other pedagogies throughout the year? #eltchat |
| Shaunwilden |
12:14 PM |
@Marisa_C Actually i think I am less likely to be explicit with YLs than adults #eltchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:14 PM |
@Shaunwilden "Teaching grammar explicitly is more effective than not teaching it or than teaching it implicitly; that is now clear" #eltchat |
| waykatewit |
12:14 PM |
@Marisa_C @antoniaclare with YL is's really counterproductive - but the opposite with adults #eltchat |
| ShetlandESOL |
12:14 PM |
@Marisa_C @antoniaclare Agreed. And even with adult learners we need to take into account edu. background when teaching grammar #eltchat |
| michelleworgan |
12:14 PM |
@teflerinha Exactly, living in the country! can explicit teaching help speed up the process? #eltchat |
| louisealix68 |
12:15 PM |
I feel correct pedagogy is teaching what your pupils want/need when they are ready for it. Cannot overgeneralise. #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:15 PM |
@theteacherjames @Shaunwilden Do u think she means noticing etc by 'implictly'? #eltchat |
| michelleworgan |
12:15 PM |
But as we mentioned, picking it up naturally needs lots of exposure! #eltchat @teflerinha |
| Marisa_C |
12:15 PM |
@michelleworgan @teflerina #eltchat Have observed so many classes using both implicit & expliciit GT - believe me explicit makes NO diff |
| MarjorieRosenbe |
12:15 PM |
Just noticed the time, sorry. I introdice grammar points, give rules & examples & then we do loads of activities to practice. #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:15 PM |
@theteacherjames @teflgeek I think some people do feel that it shouldn't be 'taught', that ss should pick it up naturally #eltchat |
| waykatewit |
12:16 PM |
@teflerinha @theteacherjames @teflgeek that will work - buta long process. Explicit teaching is a shortcut #eltchat - ? |
| theteacherjames |
12:16 PM |
RT @Marisa_C: Ss' desire for explicit grammar instruction cloely linked to Ts' thinking explicit teaching is what their job all about #E ... |
| Marisa_C |
12:16 PM |
What your Ss want or think they need is not always what they really need or the best way to learn - that s why YOU are the teacher #ELTchat |
| SahalZyad |
12:16 PM |
RT @Marisa_C: Ss' desire for explicit grammar instruction cloely linked to Ts' thinking explicit teaching is what their job all about #E ... |
| stiiiv |
12:16 PM |
Lang structure reflects cognitve org of experience. Adults need explicit instruction in L2 to re-language L2 ways of thinking #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:16 PM |
@michelleworgan Yes, not saying I think that, but I have obs plenty of ts who do #eltchat |
| louisealix68 |
12:16 PM |
RT @michelleworgan: But as we mentioned, picking it up naturally needs lots of exposure! #eltchat @teflerinha |
| ElkySmith |
12:16 PM |
I think the problem with explicit grammar instruction comes when it overtakes the lesson and there's little time for production #eltchat |
| esolcourses |
12:16 PM |
RT @louisealix68: I feel correct pedagogy is teaching what your pupils want/need when they are ready for it. Cannot overgeneralise. #eltchat |
| Shaunwilden |
12:16 PM |
RT @ChrisGyford: @Shaunwilden I tend to avoid explicit grammar with YL and business students (the two ends of the spectrum).#eltchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:16 PM |
@teflerinha That's still part of the teaching though. This could just be semantics though. #eltchat |
| teflgeek |
12:16 PM |
@teflerinha @theteacherjames but - comprehension precedes acquisition (ellis) #eltchat |
| waykatewit |
12:16 PM |
RT @MissLadyCaz: @Marisa_C @ChrisGyford Wouldn't it be more relevant to use explicit teaching alongside other pedagogies throughout the ... |
| waykatewit |
12:17 PM |
@Marisa_C #eltchat it seems that tere are different types of explicit teaching, some better than others |
| ElkySmith |
12:17 PM |
@BrunoELT Using metalanguage inappropriately is a mistake Ts make at times, just as playing long, irrelevant videos is #eltchat |
| louisealix68 |
12:17 PM |
Comes a point when reach plateau and need grammar to "up the game" (for writing anyway). Spoken grammar easier #eltchat |
| MissLadyCaz |
12:17 PM |
Knowing what our Ss need to know grammatically informs tchrs about what explicit tching is necessary and relevant to them. #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:17 PM |
@ElkySmith Yes, absolutely agree. Definitely possible to have too much emphasis on learning ABOUT grammar #eltchat |
| teacherphili |
12:17 PM |
Agree with those who say that the situation/context is important. EAP/ESP would require a higher explicit grammar component #ELTchat |
| michelleworgan |
12:17 PM |
I agree @Marisa_C but also to keep them happy - if they demand rules, I give 'em rules! #eltchat |
| Marisa_C |
12:17 PM |
@cioccas indeed! #ELTchat |
| MarjorieRosenbe |
12:17 PM |
@Marisa_C Agree that gtammar rules for YL doesn't make much sense. Adult learners are a different story. #eltchat |
| cioccas |
12:17 PM |
@Marisa_C Recurring theme :-) #ELTchat |
| pjgallantry |
12:17 PM |
#ELTchat good job Scott Thornbury isn't in on this chat-he'd be having kittens and screaming 'grammar mcnuggets!' :)) |
| waykatewit |
12:17 PM |
@ElkySmith exactly #eltchat |
| esolcourses |
12:17 PM |
RT @ElkySmith: problem with explicit grammar instruction comes when it overtakes the lesson & there's little time for production #eltchat |
| ShetlandESOL |
12:18 PM |
@esolcourses @ElkySmith Doesn't this equate explicit grammar teaching with teacher led grammar explanations though? #eltchat |
| waykatewit |
12:18 PM |
RT @louisealix68: Comes a point when reach plateau and need grammar to "up the game" (for writing anyway). Spoken grammar easier #eltchat |
| michelleworgan |
12:18 PM |
RT @Marisa_C: @michelleworgan But DO TELL them that it's just to keep them happy - and explain why #eltchat |good point! |
| ElkySmith |
12:18 PM |
@BrunoELT But that doesn't mean that it's a problem in itself of course. I'm not sure if I'm making any sense! #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:18 PM |
RT @waykatewit: @Marisa_C #eltchat it seems that tere are different types of explicit teaching, some better than others> Yes, think so 2 |
| waykatewit |
12:18 PM |
RT @pjgallantry: #ELTchat good job Scott Thornbury isn't in on this chat-he'd be having kittens and screaming 'grammar mcnuggets!' :)) |
| Marisa_C |
12:18 PM |
@michelleworgan But DO TELL them that it's just to keep them happy - and explain why #eltchat |
| michelleworgan |
12:18 PM |
RT @antoniaclare: I think it's helpful to focus on explicit grammar to help Sts to notice this language when outside class, or in later ... |
| Shaunwilden |
12:18 PM |
@teflerinha @theteacherjames Well she talks of syllabus with explicit so i presume implicit includes noticing #eltchat |
| michaelegriffin |
12:18 PM |
I'd say that here in Korea Ss have been lectured at about grammar 4 so long "native teachers" are expected to de-emphasize grammar #ELTchat |
| antoniaclare |
12:18 PM |
I think it's helpful to focus on explicit grammar to help Sts to notice this language when outside class, or in later classes #eltchat |
| teflgeek |
12:18 PM |
RT @pjgallantry: #ELTchat good job Scott Thornbury isn't in on this chat-he'd be having kittens and screaming 'grammar mcnuggets!' :)) |
| louisealix68 |
12:19 PM |
RT @Marisa_C: Explicit grammar teaching does not necessarily mean rule GIVING - it could be rule DISCOVERY #ELTchat |
| cioccas |
12:19 PM |
What do you do when half the class want more grammar, half want less? #ELTchat |
| Shaunwilden |
12:19 PM |
RT @Marisa_C: Explicit grammar teaching does not necessarily mean rule GIVING - it could be rule DISCOVERY #ELTchat |
| Marisa_C |
12:19 PM |
Explicit grammar teaching does not necessarily mean rule GIVING - it could be rule DISCOVERY #ELTchat |
| teflgeek |
12:19 PM |
Isn't it just about using different tools for different jobs? Sometimes learners need EGT, other times they need to figure it out #ELTchat |
| teflerinha |
12:19 PM |
@pjgallantry @waykatewit #eltchat But emergent grammar taught explicitly2 isn't it? It's where it comes from that's different (not syllabus) |
| MarjorieRosenbe |
12:19 PM |
Also depends on learning style. Analytic learners ate really unhappy w/o rules but Globsl learners may not care. #eltchat |
| antoniaclare |
12:19 PM |
Rather than relying on exposure and naturally picking language up #eltchat |
| teacherphili |
12:19 PM |
Also agree with comments that it is generally better to pick up on grammatical errors but only where necessary #ELTchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:19 PM |
In my experience, the students I have taught were sick of explicit grammar exercises & want to get on with using it! #eltchat |
| waykatewit |
12:20 PM |
RT @Shaunwilden: @Marisa_C Agreed in the article it implies more of making sure there is a grammar syllabus than approach to teaching IM ... |
| stiiiv |
12:20 PM |
I don't think Scott Th is against explicit teaching of gramm. He wld just argue 4 doing it at point of need - and context embedded #eltchat |
| louisealix68 |
12:20 PM |
@teacherphili and if we "flip class" so explanation is at home for those who need and production in class? #ELTchat |
| Shaunwilden |
12:20 PM |
@Marisa_C Agreed in the article it implies more of making sure there is a grammar syllabus than approach to teaching IMO #eltchat |
| MissLadyCaz |
12:20 PM |
RT @Marisa_C: Explicit grammar teaching does not necessarily mean rule GIVING - it could be rule DISCOVERY #ELTchat |
| Marisa_C |
12:20 PM |
@cioccas Give them some HW from a grammar book and give key next time #ELTchat |
| teflgeek |
12:20 PM |
@cioccas give extra homework #eltchat |
| teacherphili |
12:20 PM |
By teaching grammar explicitly we are making an assumption [our students in whatever situation] don't know it already #ELTchat |
| esolcourses |
12:20 PM |
@theteacherjames @Shaunwilden how broad is the evidence, though? Does it encompass mixed levels, & s's with barriers to learning? #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:20 PM |
RT @antoniaclare: Rather than relying on exposure and naturally picking language up #eltchat > agree with both parts of this tweet :) |
| MissLadyCaz |
12:20 PM |
Interesting and meaningful content is the vehicle tchrs need to use to base their explicit tching pf grammar on. #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:21 PM |
RT @worldteacher: As always, doesn't it depend on the type of learner? As a second language learner, I always want to know the grammar 1 ... |
| theteacherjames |
12:21 PM |
@esolcourses @Shaunwilden This is raised in the comments to the article. I would love to hear her comeback. #eltchat |
| esolcourses |
12:21 PM |
@theteacherjames @Shaunwilden ... because if it doesn't, then there may be a danger of making '1 size fits all' assumptions #eltchat |
| worldteacher |
12:21 PM |
As always, doesn't it depend on the type of learner? As a second language learner, I always want to know the grammar 1st! #eltchat |
| teacherphili |
12:21 PM |
could I suggest that some grammar rules are meant to be broken, just like world records ;-) #ELTchat |
| MarjorieRosenbe |
12:21 PM |
@Shaunwilden Again depends on bus E students. Some of my bankers love rules & want to know why something is as it is. #eltchat |
| roboseyo |
12:21 PM |
@michaelegriffin perhaps… but they'd sure better know it, just in case. #ELTchat |
| cioccas |
12:21 PM |
@waykatewit I 'try' to do that too, but hard to please all of the people all of the time! #ELTchat |
| teflerinha |
12:21 PM |
@waykatewit @theteacherjames @teflgeek > Yes 1. Child learning L1 is not same as adult learning L2, 2nd amount of exposure v. diff #eltchat |
| Shaunwilden |
12:22 PM |
@theteacherjames @esolcourses I'll try and get her to do an interview :-) Didnt read the comments #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:22 PM |
@Shaunwilden @theteacherjames #eltchat > Ah,didn't read it that way. For me noticing is better than presenting from nowhere- more memorable |
| cioccas |
12:22 PM |
@theteacherjames @esolcourses @Shaunwilden Me too! #ELTchat |
| teflgeek |
12:22 PM |
@teflerinha @waykatewit @theteacherjames kids more acquisitive / adults more analytical #eltchat |
| stiiiv |
12:22 PM |
Do we need to distinguish between internal and pedagogical grammatical syllabuses? Processing Instruction suggests former important #eltchat |
| Marisa_C |
12:22 PM |
@stiiiv CONTEXT v important - I find problem with poor grammar teaching is lack of language shown or practised in context #eltchat |
| EvocationEFL |
12:22 PM |
#eltchat is in full swing right now |
| cioccas |
12:22 PM |
@teflgeek Homework, what's that? :-) Some of my Ss find it hard enough to get to class! #ELTchat |
| louisealix68 |
12:22 PM |
@teacherphili like the "split infinitive"?! - absolutely! #ELTchat |
| esolcourses |
12:23 PM |
@ShetlandESOL @ElkySmith I think it depends. Sometimes t-led grammar explanations are necessary, but IMO shouldn't be driving force #eltchat |
| ChrisGyford |
12:23 PM |
@MarjorieRosenbe @Shaunwilden In my business teaching I've found group such as computer prfoessionals who repond best to the rules. #ELTchat |
| waykatewit |
12:23 PM |
@stiiiv and they never coincide #eltchat |
| Marisa_C |
12:23 PM |
Have just had a quick look at article which very poor in citing evidence IMHO and remember she is a GRAMMAR book author #ELTchat Sorry! |
| theteacherjames |
12:23 PM |
@Shaunwilden Comments are excellent, for once. Links to her research included. #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:23 PM |
@teflgeek @waykatewit @theteacherjames Yes, adults have skills babies (and even YLS) don't yet have #eltchat |
| michaelegriffin |
12:23 PM |
@roboseyo Yes,very true/good point. I always like to "flex my grammatical muscles"early on in the course so they know it's a choice #ELTchat |
| MarjorieRosenbe |
12:23 PM |
@esolcourses @ElkySmith I give out hamdouts with rules. Class time is for brief explantions, clarification & practice. #eltchat |
| louisealix68 |
12:23 PM |
anyone else having problems keeping up? Must be age! #eltchat |
| worldteacher |
12:23 PM |
@teacherphili Agreed, but it helps to know what the rules are in the first place so you can choose the best ones to break! :-) #eltchat |
| cioccas |
12:23 PM |
@Shaunwilden @theteacherjames @esolcourses Great idea Shaun! #ELTchat |
| antoniaclare |
12:23 PM |
@teacherphili Yes, but we base these assumptions on what is happening in the classroom, don't we? #eltchat |
| teacherphili |
12:24 PM |
RT @Marisa_C: Have just had a quick look at article which very poor in citing evidence IMHO and remember she is a GRAMMAR book author #E ... |
| Shaunwilden |
12:24 PM |
@louisealix68 It is always tricky to keep up :- ) We'll have a summary of it by the weekend :-) #eltchat |
| esolcourses |
12:24 PM |
@cioccas @Shaunwilden @theteacherjames great idea, and seconded! #Eltchat |
| worldteacher |
12:24 PM |
@Marisa_C References given in comments - strength of evidence hotly debated! #eltchat |
| louisealix68 |
12:24 PM |
@teflerinha phew, not just me then! #eltchat |
| teflgeek |
12:24 PM |
@Marisa_C true - there is a professional academic career at stake here! #eltchat |
| Shaunwilden |
12:24 PM |
@Marisa_C :-) oh you cynic #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:24 PM |
@louisealix68 No, me too. Think there are lots of different threads to this topic #eltchat |
| louisealix68 |
12:25 PM |
I wonder how many of us base our teaching (grammar) on our own beliefs + experiences and how many base it on SLA research #eltchat |
| esolcourses |
12:25 PM |
@MarjorieRosenbe @ElkySmith I don't really do handouts, but give links and encourage s's to do online activities between lessons #eltchat |
| AAwbathani |
12:25 PM |
RT @teflerinha: #eltchat My experience with #esol is that a lot of teachers do avoid teaching grammar explicitly..partly a q of avoiding ... |
| Marisa_C |
12:25 PM |
@worldteacher Ach you know how limited research in terms of the success or failure of any method or approach is?????? #eltchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:25 PM |
RT @Marisa_C: What your Ss want or think they need is not always what they really need or the best way to learn - that s why YOU are the ... |
| pterolaur |
12:25 PM |
Enjoying reading comments on #ELTchat but don't know how anyone is managing to keep up or contribute :) #EGT #eltchat |
| teacherphili |
12:25 PM |
@Marisa_C mmmm quelle surprise #ELTchat |
| waykatewit |
12:25 PM |
@Marisa_C what about our experience though :) #eltchat |
| teflgeek |
12:25 PM |
@waykatewit can you train acquisitive behaviour or is it just instinct? #eltchat |
| ElkySmith |
12:25 PM |
RT @Shaunwilden: @theteacherjames @esolcourses I'll try and get her to do an interview :-) Didnt read the comments #eltchat - Tht wld be gr8 |
| MarjorieRosenbe |
12:25 PM |
@antoniaclare Does that really work with aduly learners? I needed both when I started learning German here in Austria. #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:26 PM |
@MarjorieRosenbe @antoniaclare So did I, but I had colleagues who learnt Polish quite 'naturally' > but most ss not in immersion #eltchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:26 PM |
RT @michaelegriffin: I'd say that here in Korea Ss have been lectured at about grammar 4 so long "native teachers" are expected to de-em ... |
| MarjorieRosenbe |
12:26 PM |
@Marisa_C Right. We do lots of disvovery in writing course books. #eltchat |
| teflgeek |
12:27 PM |
@waykatewit when I try to encourage learner training, noticing and chunking, the responses are never encouraging. But I persevere! #eltchat |
| stiiiv |
12:27 PM |
@louisealix68 SLA research has many conflicting concls, we need 2 listen but take it all with open mind & experiment for ourselves #eltchat |
| worldteacher |
12:27 PM |
@louisealix68 I think we base it on our experience & knowledge of the students we are currently teaching - try to meet their needs. #eltchat |
| louisealix68 |
12:27 PM |
@Shaunwilden me too. Based on 4 phases I feel book stops at step 2/3 so teacher has to ensure step 4 not missed. #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:27 PM |
@waykatewit @teflgeek @theteacherjames > That's an interesting viewpoint. Do u use suggestopaedia type techniques? #eltchat |
| ElkySmith |
12:27 PM |
For me, EGI is about telling Ss: 'This is what we're focusing on, this is why it's important, here's how to use it, now you try!"#eltchat |
| teacherphili |
12:27 PM |
RT @pterolaur: "don't know how anyone is managing to keep up or contribute :)" #eltchat -> do you have TweetDeck. It helps. |
| Shaunwilden |
12:27 PM |
@MarjorieRosenbe @Marisa_C Really? I feel coursebook dont do enough re discovery / noticing more of a tell and show #eltchat |
| ChrisGyford |
12:28 PM |
@MarjorieRosenbe Is there a difference here between beginner adults and other adults that have had years of grammar instruction? @eltchat |
| louisealix68 |
12:28 PM |
@stiiiv absolutely agree - not just base on own vision but weigh all equally! #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:28 PM |
@Shaunwilden @MarjorieRosenbe @Marisa_C Depends on the CB- pubs have clear ideas about 'what the market wants' I find #eltchat |
| ElkySmith |
12:28 PM |
@esolcourses @MarjorieRosenbe I think written grammar exercises are useful to give Ss time to process but must be used sparingly! #eltchat |
| antoniaclare |
12:28 PM |
@MarjorieRosenbe Agree that some explicit instruction works well for many learners, some more than others tho' #eltchat |
| waykatewit |
12:28 PM |
@teflgeek #eltchat I think we can, and we shouls - towards upper levels, keep training rgose skills. Learner independence and stuff |
| theteacherjames |
12:29 PM |
@pterolaur It's a busy one today, it's true! #ELTchat |
| teflgeek |
12:29 PM |
@teacherphili @louisealix68 split infinitives don't exist in English. People only think they do because they do in latin #eltchat |
| louisealix68 |
12:29 PM |
@teacherphili Indeed! #ELTchat |
| teflerinha |
12:29 PM |
@michaelegriffin @pterolaur Do you have a lot of practice with this particular genre of discourse ;) #eltchat |
| cioccas |
12:29 PM |
@MarjorieRosenbe @waykatewit Thanks for your suggestions. I try that, but hard to get some Ss to do ANYthing outside class #ELTchat |
| pterolaur |
12:29 PM |
@teacherphili Using TweetChat. Def think I need to try something else...thanks for advice! #eltchat |
| Shaunwilden |
12:29 PM |
@teflerinha @MarjorieRosenbe @Marisa_C Yes agreed. My opinion is based on lots of banging my head with editors :-) #eltchat |
| teacherphili |
12:29 PM |
RT @louisealix68: @teacherphili like the "split infinitive"?! - absolutely! #ELTchat > what's a split infinitive?? |
| teflgeek |
12:29 PM |
@waykatewit but that's interesting because it suggests EGT is more important at lower levels, noticing etc more at higher #eltchat |
| worldteacher |
12:29 PM |
RT @stiiiv: SLA research has conflicting concls, we need 2 listen but take it all with open mind & experiment for ourselves #eltchat >Yes! |
| teacherphili |
12:30 PM |
@worldteacher i see. when did the topic change to Star Trek? #eltchat |
| ElkySmith |
12:30 PM |
@esolcourses @MarjorieRosenbe Would you use classtime more for spoken production then? #eltchat |
| louisealix68 |
12:30 PM |
@teflgeek exactly - but tell that to some publishers! #eltchat |
| MissLadyCaz |
12:30 PM |
RT @stiiiv: @louisealix68 SLA research has many conflicting concls, we need 2 listen but take it all with open mind & experiment for ... |
| worldteacher |
12:30 PM |
@teacherphili ....to boldly go.... #eltchat |
| ShetlandESOL |
12:30 PM |
@pterolaur Me too! :) #eltchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:30 PM |
RT @louisealix68: I wonder how many of us base our teaching (grammar) on our own beliefs + experiences and how many base it on SLA resea ... |
| esolcourses |
12:30 PM |
@ElkySmith @MarjorieRosenbe agree, though unless we were focusing on writing, I'd probably set online gap fills to practise later #eltchat |
| Marisa_C |
12:30 PM |
@Shaunwilden Ha ha I can believe that! #eltchat |
| Shaunwilden |
12:31 PM |
@Marisa_C @waykatewit @MarjorieRosenbe Yes but cbks lead often lead the teacher #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:31 PM |
RT @BrunoELT: #eltchat doesnt teaching grammar explicitly mean the Use, Meaning and Form of a grammar point? Since when that is bad? |
| worldteacher |
12:31 PM |
@teacherphili Every chat is enhanced with a bit of Star Trek I find!! :-) #eltchat |
| waykatewit |
12:31 PM |
RT @teacherphili: RT @louisealix68: @teacherphili like the "split infinitive"?! - absolutely! #ELTchat > what's a split infinitive?? |
| ElkySmith |
12:31 PM |
RT @BrunoELT: #eltchat doesnt teaching grammar explicitly mean the Use, Meaning and Form of a grammar point? Since when that is bad? |
| louisealix68 |
12:31 PM |
@worldteacher the classic example! #eltchat |
| MarjorieRosenbe |
12:31 PM |
@cioccas Depends on group. Some adults ask for HW & others tell me from beginning they wont do it. #eltchat |
| louisealix68 |
12:32 PM |
How about the question of L1 / code-switching and EGT to counteract? #eltchat |
| alturki3 |
12:32 PM |
@Marisa_C however, it is some times the other way around. Thus, you need to modify their needs to the real ones #ELTchat |
| cioccas |
12:32 PM |
@MarjorieRosenbe Exactly what I see! With some I'm just glad when they can make it to class after work. #ELTchat |
| stiiiv |
12:32 PM |
Grammar stretches with experience. Play with context substitutions rather than gramm substitutns! Ask Ss: how far can this lg mean? #eltchat |
| Marisa_C |
12:32 PM |
RT @Shaunwilden: @Marisa_C @waykatewit @MarjorieRosenbe Yes but cbks lead often lead the teacher #eltchat > exactly! |
| MarjorieRosenbe |
12:32 PM |
@teflgeek @teflerinha @waykatewit @theteacherjames Not all adults are analytical. Lots of global learners out there too. #eltchat |
| Marisa_C |
12:33 PM |
@antoniaclare agree with bar set too low - yes! #eltchat |
| MarjorieRosenbe |
12:33 PM |
@esolcourses @ElkySmith Also helpful. Mine are all done and uploaded to moodle or in reader they need for class. #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:33 PM |
RT @antoniaclare: @Shaunwilden @MarjorieRosenbe @Marisa_C Gd point. Prob the bar is set 2 low 2 cater 4 inexperienced Ts or Ts w/certain ... |
| cioccas |
12:33 PM |
@teflgeek @MarjorieRosenbe I'm a 'why' kind of girl myself :-) #ELTchat |
| esolcourses |
12:33 PM |
@ElkySmith @MarjorieRosenbe Absolutely, yes. R & W & L skills can practised between lessons. S's raerly get enough speaking pract. #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:33 PM |
@BrunoELT @ElkySmith I think these are key (and would add pron too). Almost doesn't matter when you focus or how- but focus needed #eltchat |
| antoniaclare |
12:33 PM |
@Shaunwilden @MarjorieRosenbe @Marisa_C Gd point. Prob the bar is set 2 low 2 cater 4 inexperienced Ts or Ts w/certain expectations #eltchat |
| teflgeek |
12:33 PM |
@MarjorieRosenbe true but I meant there is more of a tendency to want to know "why" #eltchat |
| Marisa_C |
12:34 PM |
@louisealix68 read @antoniaclare 's comments #eltchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:34 PM |
How do you deal with the huge inconsistencies in English grammar? Do you find this a potential problem in teaching it explicitly? #eltchat |
| waykatewit |
12:34 PM |
RT @MarjorieRosenbe: @esolcourses @ElkySmith I give out hamdouts with rules. Class time is for brief explantions, clarification & pr ... |
| louisealix68 |
12:34 PM |
RT @ElkySmith: I took Catherine's article to be along similar lines to Demand-High Teaching - encouraging more Ts to challenge CLT ortho ... |
| louisealix68 |
12:34 PM |
@Marisa_C which bar? for whom? #eltchat |
| esolcourses |
12:34 PM |
@ElkySmith @MarjorieRosenbe although it does depend on the context and the type of course #eltchat |
| ElkySmith |
12:34 PM |
I took Catherine's article to be along similar lines to Demand-High Teaching - encouraging more Ts to challenge CLT orthodoxy. #eltchat |
| MarjorieRosenbe |
12:35 PM |
@teflerinha @antoniaclare Again depends on situation. My partner spent 10 months in Italy & didn't learn Italian. No motivation. #eltchat |
| ElkySmith |
12:35 PM |
@esolcourses @MarjorieRosenbe 'make sure'- poor choice of words :-) #eltchat |
| stiiiv |
12:35 PM |
@theteacherjames On inconsistencies: teach grammar as the dynamic languaging of experience, not as an inert system of rules #eltchat |
| waykatewit |
12:35 PM |
@Marisa_C #eltchat can we think of it as a scale, not alternative choice? natural - discovery - ecplicit rule based? |
| ElkySmith |
12:35 PM |
@esolcourses @MarjorieRosenbe True, but don't we also need to make sure Ss can produce/understand the written form? #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:36 PM |
RT @teflgeek: @theteacherjames isn't that where noticing starts to come in? Cover the main points explicitly and notice the exceptions? ... |
| MissLadyCaz |
12:36 PM |
@stiiiv I've found this approach very powerful. Ss are supported by the structure & new contexts provide op's for lang examination #eltchat |
| Marisa_C |
12:36 PM |
RT @BrunoELT: @teflerinha would you add pronunciation to the teaching of grammar? That's interesting... #eltchat > I would yes! |
| MarjorieRosenbe |
12:36 PM |
@Shaunwilden @Marisa_C Have done this for a series for Austrian schools. #eltchat |
| ElkySmith |
12:36 PM |
@theteacherjames I think not addressing these explicitly is more likely to leave Ss feeling confused and frustrated. #eltchat |
| teflgeek |
12:36 PM |
@theteacherjames isn't that where noticing starts to come in? Cover the main points explicitly and notice the exceptions? #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:36 PM |
@BrunoELT Any language (vocab, grammar, functions)..4 example if you're teaching conditionals, the intonation is pretty important #eltchat |
| waykatewit |
12:36 PM |
RT @Marisa_C: @antoniaclare agree with bar set too low - yes! #eltchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:36 PM |
RT @stiiiv: @theteacherjames On inconsistencies: teach grammar as the dynamic languaging of experience, not as an inert system of rules ... |
| esolcourses |
12:36 PM |
@MarjorieRosenbe @ElkySmith I upload activities to my website (usually personalised) or use email to set tasks, etc. #eltchat |
| Marisa_C |
12:36 PM |
RT @waykatewit: @Marisa_C #eltchat can we think of it as a scale, not alternative choice? natural - discovery - explicit rule based? > gd pt |
| AlexandraKouk |
12:36 PM |
RT @theteacherjames: How do you deal with the huge inconsistencies in English grammar? Do you find this a potential problem in teaching ... |
| Macgyvelene |
12:37 PM |
RT @Shaunwilden: The 12 BST #eltchat is Do you teach grammar explicitly? If so, how? if not, why not? see you in 10 minutes |
| stiiiv |
12:37 PM |
@MissLadyCaz I think we need to remember that grammar and context are co-constitutive. One gives rise to the other #eltchat |
| esolcourses |
12:37 PM |
@ElkySmith @MarjorieRosenbe agree - which is where blogging, email and chat come in. #eltchat |
| antoniaclare |
12:37 PM |
@MarjorieRosenbe That's really interesting. I reckon it took me 12 months to become fluent (no grammar input but lots of motivation #eltchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:37 PM |
RT @teflgeek: @theteacherjames isn't that where noticing starts to come in? Cover the main points explicitly and notice the exceptions? ... |
| ElkySmith |
12:37 PM |
@Marisa_C @BrunoELT @teflerinha Yes, me too. #eltchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:37 PM |
RT @ElkySmith: @theteacherjames I think not addressing these explicitly is more likely to leave Ss feeling confused and frustrated. #eltchat |
| worldteacher |
12:37 PM |
RT @ElkySmith: @theteacherjames I think not addressing these explicitly is more likely to leave Ss feeling confused and frustrated. #eltchat |
| MarjorieRosenbe |
12:38 PM |
Find compromise. Info with rules & practice for home & fun, communicative practice in class. #eltchat |
| ElkySmith |
12:38 PM |
@esolcourses @MarjorieRosenbe Yes, I agree - preferable to dull workbook exercises for HW! #eltchat |
| waykatewit |
12:38 PM |
@waykatewit @Marisa_C #eltchat the older the SS, the more explicit at first, via training to discover, to natural approach at high levels? |
| antoniaclare |
12:38 PM |
RT @stiiiv: @MissLadyCaz I think we need to remember that grammar and context are co-constitutive. One gives rise to the other #eltchat |
| Shaunwilden |
12:39 PM |
Tuned out for a bit am back now where we at? #eltchat |
| ElkySmith |
12:39 PM |
RT @stiiiv: Danger in grammar teaching that we think of context as backdrop, as empty container. It's not. Language & context shape ... |
| worldteacher |
12:39 PM |
RT @stiiiv: Danger in grammar teaching that we think of context as backdrop, as empty container. It's not. Language & context shape ... |
| AlexandraKouk |
12:39 PM |
RT @Marisa_C: Seems that context is important- problem solving/working out/discovery possibly leading 2 explicit articulation or rules b ... |
| louisealix68 |
12:39 PM |
RT @stiiiv: Danger in grammar teaching that we think of context as backdrop, as empty container. It's not. Language & context shape ... |
| teflerinha |
12:39 PM |
RT @stiiiv: Danger in grammar teaching that we think of context as backdrop, as empty container. It's not. Language & context shape ... |
| MissLadyCaz |
12:39 PM |
@stiiiv Agreed! #eltchat |
| waykatewit |
12:39 PM |
RT @stiiiv: Grammar stretches with experience. Play with context substitutions rather than gramm substitutns! Ask Ss: how far can this l ... |
| teflerinha |
12:39 PM |
@waykatewit @Marisa_C Yes, I can see that..but still need lots of exposure 4 natural app- bt could have outside class if motivated #eltchat |
| stiiiv |
12:39 PM |
Danger in grammar teaching that we think of context as backdrop, as empty container. It's not. Language & context shape each other #eltchat |
| Marisa_C |
12:39 PM |
Seems that context is important- problem solving/working out/discovery possibly leading 2 explicit articulation or rules by the Ss? #ELTchat |
| Shaunwilden |
12:40 PM |
Have asked Catherine if she would be happy to be interviewed for the podcast so fingers crossed :-) #eltchat |
| teacherphili |
12:40 PM |
@EBEFL Did you notice the #ELTchat topic today, concerning the lack of evidence for teaching grammar rules explicitly? http://t.co/TBRkAkkD |
| teflgeek |
12:40 PM |
Basic explicit grammar lesson: Reward resource activity, guided discovery task, practice ex coursebook, cutting edge T bk activity #eltchat |
| antoniaclare |
12:40 PM |
@MarjorieRosenbe Agreed #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:40 PM |
@BrunoELT @ElkySmith @marisa_c Well, I would include those in pron- do you just mean sounds? #eltchat |
| Marisa_C |
12:40 PM |
@Shaunwilden trying to make sense of it all :-) #eltchat |
| waykatewit |
12:40 PM |
@stiiiv now I know the term for what I do at my lessons :) #eltchat |
| MarjorieRosenbe |
12:40 PM |
@antoniaclare I think the key word hee is motivation. Immersion alone isn't enough. #eltchat |
| antoniaclare |
12:40 PM |
@teflgeek Hmm...I would say that 'noticing' is where we are explicit about the language #eltchat |
| stiiiv |
12:41 PM |
Prob with gramm T-ing in tradit CLT: doesn't take context seriously. Context, participant relations & culture all shape grammar #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:41 PM |
@BrunoELT Well, no, that was just an example. Connected speech also v imp for grammatical structures like past perfect. #eltchat |
| AlexandraKouk |
12:41 PM |
RT @teflerinha: @BrunoELT @ElkySmith @marisa_c Well, I wld include those in pron- do U just mean sounds? #eltchat > intonation also v. imp! |
| ElkySmith |
12:41 PM |
@BrunoELT @marisa_c @teflerinha We need to help Ss develop 'grammar recognition' in both spoken & written forms #eltchat |
| antoniaclare |
12:41 PM |
@Shaunwilden Great stuff #eltchat |
| waykatewit |
12:41 PM |
@teflerinha @Marisa_C there's no other way than being motivated... #eltchat |
| esolcourses |
12:42 PM |
RT @Marisa_C: Seems that context is important- problem solving/working out/discovery possibly leading 2 explicit articulation or rules b ... |
| teflerinha |
12:42 PM |
@waykatewit @Marisa_C Certainly :) #eltchat |
| stiiiv |
12:42 PM |
For explicit gramm T-ing: means teaching (keen awareness of) contexts as well as forms… #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:42 PM |
RT @antoniaclare: RT @ElkySmith: @BrunoELT @marisa_c @teflerinha We need to help Ss develop 'grammar recognition' in both spoken & ... |
| Marisa_C |
12:42 PM |
And what about the differences between the grammar of spoken lang vs the grammar of written lang? Enough attention in grammar boks? #ELtchat |
| teflerinha |
12:42 PM |
@Shaunwilden Brilliant- will she read the chat? #eltchat |
| MarjorieRosenbe |
12:42 PM |
@Shaunwilden great idea. #eltchat |
| louisealix68 |
12:42 PM |
@stiiiv think depends on "interpretation" of CLT #eltchat |
| ElkySmith |
12:42 PM |
@teflerinha @BrunoELT Yes, I agree re. connected speech. #eltchat |
| antoniaclare |
12:42 PM |
RT @ElkySmith: @BrunoELT @marisa_c @teflerinha We need to help Ss develop 'grammar recognition' in both spoken & written forms #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:43 PM |
RT @ElkySmith: @Marisa_C I think no, because there's often not enough authentic spoken and written material to really effectively presen ... |
| MissLadyCaz |
12:43 PM |
My hubby and I developed an IWB tool to support grammar instruction in context. http://t.co/ly2DRVVs #eltchat |
| teacherphili |
12:43 PM |
@stiiiv I agree again with the co-dependancy of context/need + what the T does #ELTchat Need to ask ourselves what do the Ss actually need? |
| teflerinha |
12:43 PM |
RT @antoniaclare: I would say focus on pron is essential when we look at grammar. Need to help sts recognise and produce the lang #eltchat |
| ElkySmith |
12:43 PM |
@Marisa_C I think no, because there's often not enough authentic spoken and written material to really effectively present the diff #eltchat |
| antoniaclare |
12:43 PM |
I would say focus on pron is essential when we look at grammar. Need to help sts recognise and produce the lang #eltchat |
| Shaunwilden |
12:43 PM |
@stiiiv The phrase traditional CLT is interesting - what do you mean by traditional? #eltchat |
| teacherphili |
12:44 PM |
RT @MissLadyCaz: My hubby and I developed an IWB tool to support grammar instruction in context. http://t.co/GaCesaUX #eltchat > interesting |
| cioccas |
12:44 PM |
@Marisa_C Some interesting ideas for dealing with this here: A Handbook of Spoken Grammar http://t.co/0OtcNMAW #ELTchat |
| AlexandraKouk |
12:44 PM |
This seems relevant - Teaching ESL Students to "Notice" Grammar http://t.co/plq9aW9i #ELTCHAT |
| teflerinha |
12:44 PM |
RT @antoniaclare: @Marisa_C I don't think most books look at the spoken form enough. Spoken grammar increasingly important #ELtchat>agree |
| MarjorieRosenbe |
12:44 PM |
@antoniaclare @ElkySmith @BrunoELT At least make them recognise if they are using forms appropriately & on correct context. #eltchat |
| ElkySmith |
12:44 PM |
@Marisa_C Yes, completely agree! #eltchat |
| stiiiv |
12:44 PM |
@Shaunwilden Traditional CLT: that found in almost any textbook I know. Almost none take context as contributing to lang form #eltchat |
| antoniaclare |
12:44 PM |
@Marisa_C I don't think most books look at the spoken form enough. Spoken grammar increasingly important #ELtchat |
| waykatewit |
12:44 PM |
RT @ElkySmith: @Marisa_C I think no, because there's often not enough authentic spoken and written material to really effectively presen ... |
| Marisa_C |
12:44 PM |
@ElkySmith which a shame really as this would be a great help to Ts #eltchat |
| GoldGrino |
12:44 PM |
RT @stiiiv: Danger in grammar teaching that we think of context as backdrop, as empty container. It's not. Language & context shape ... |
| teflgeek |
12:44 PM |
@antoniaclare: 'noticing' is where we are explicit about the language - can you clarify that? #eltchat |
| MissLadyCaz |
12:45 PM |
@antoniaclare @Marisa_C And the spoken form needs to be where we start. #eltchat |
| ElkySmith |
12:45 PM |
What about Catherine's point that we must have a grammar syllabus, rather than dealing with it on a needs basis? #eltchat |
| cioccas |
12:45 PM |
@MissLadyCaz Thanks, will check that out! #ELTchat |
| Marisa_C |
12:45 PM |
RT @cioccas: @Marisa_C Some interesting ideas for dealing with this here: A Handbook of Spoken Grammar http://t.co/w2i4bxoY #ELTchat > yes |
| Shaunwilden |
12:45 PM |
RT @Marisa_C: Another ? What sources do Ts use to research grammar? Is this research thorough enough or just Ss' grammars #ELTchat |
| antoniaclare |
12:45 PM |
@teflgeek If come across new lang in a text, I might stop to highlight s/t, then give other egs, helps sts 2 notice same lang l8er #eltchat |
| esolcourses |
12:45 PM |
RT @AlexandraKouk: This seems relevant - Teaching ESL Students to "Notice" Grammar http://t.co/vBZwGXQQ #ELTCHAT |
| Marisa_C |
12:45 PM |
Another question: What sources do Ts use to research grammar? Is this research thorough enough or just Ss' grammars #ELTchat Suggestions? |
| stiiiv |
12:45 PM |
New DELTA TD book on spoken grammar beginning to redress the balance. Shows how context forces different grammar #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:45 PM |
RT @cioccas: @Marisa_C Some interesting ideas for dealing with this here: A Handbook of Spoken Grammar http://t.co/0OtcNMAW #ELTchat |
| worldteacher |
12:45 PM |
RT @AlexandraKouk: This seems relevant - Teaching ESL Students to "Notice" Grammar http://t.co/plq9aW9i #ELTCHAT |
| Shaunwilden |
12:45 PM |
@stiiiv Ta :-) i see your point #eltchat |
| waykatewit |
12:46 PM |
RT @cioccas: @Marisa_C Some interesting ideas for dealing with this here: A Handbook of Spoken Grammar http://t.co/0OtcNMAW #ELTchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:46 PM |
RT @antoniaclare: I would say focus on pron is essential when we look at grammar. Need to help sts recognise and produce the lang #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:46 PM |
@ElkySmith Personally think fine to have syllabus to cover bases..but don't need to stick 2 it rigidly as stuff emerges #eltchat |
| ElkySmith |
12:46 PM |
@Shaunwilden @Marisa_C Yes, another important issue - Ts should go outside (to Catherine's other half?) CBs to undrstnd more deeply #eltchat |
| louisealix68 |
12:46 PM |
@ElkySmith think depends on context and reason for learning (and level wanted) #eltchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:46 PM |
RT @Marisa_C: And what about the differences between the grammar of spoken lang vs the grammar of written lang? Enough attention in gram ... |
| antoniaclare |
12:46 PM |
@teflgeek So the highlighting and being explicit about the lang point helps sts to notice. Does that make sense? #eltchat |
| Marisa_C |
12:46 PM |
@stiiiv but only one source, unfortunately.... #ELTchat |
| waykatewit |
12:46 PM |
RT @stiiiv: New DELTA TD book on spoken grammar beginning to redress the balance. Shows how context forces different grammar #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:46 PM |
RT @ElkySmith: What about Catherine's point that we must have a grammar syllabus, rather than dealing with it on a needs basis? #eltchat |
| MarjorieRosenbe |
12:46 PM |
@Marisa_C Seems to be coming more with development of written & spoken corpuses. #eltchat |
| Shaunwilden |
12:46 PM |
RT @ElkySmith: What about Catherine's point that we must have a grammar syllabus, rather than dealing with it on a needs basis? #eltchat |
| stiiiv |
12:46 PM |
RT @cioccas: @Marisa_C Yes, this is the one! A Handbook of Spoken Grammar http://t.co/nyV01mVK #ELTchat |
| Marisa_C |
12:47 PM |
Walter claim against natural acquisition order claims (and studies) do you 'fall in; or go against that? #ELtchat |
| antoniaclare |
12:47 PM |
@Shaunwilden I think it makes sense to try and cover a global syllabus and incorporate focus where sts needs dictate #eltchat |
| teflgeek |
12:47 PM |
@antoniaclare yep! perfectly. In my head the learners were doing the noticing by themselves! #eltchat |
| louisealix68 |
12:47 PM |
RT @stiiiv: @ElkySmith @teflerinha Walter may be partially right, but what's taught is not what is necessarily learned! #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:47 PM |
RT @stiiiv: @ElkySmith @teflerinha Walter may be partially right, but what's taught is not what is necessarily learned! #eltchat |
| MissLadyCaz |
12:47 PM |
@teacherphili I used it this year with preps (5 year olds). Their concept of words happened far quicker than I expected. #eltchat |
| stiiiv |
12:47 PM |
@ElkySmith @teflerinha Walter may be partially right, but what's taught is not what is necessarily learned! #eltchat |
| esolcourses |
12:47 PM |
RT @ElkySmith What about Catherine's point that we must have a grammar syllabus, rather than deal with it on needs basis? #eltchat disagree |
| ShetlandESOL |
12:48 PM |
RT @antoniaclare: @Shaunwilden I think it makes sense to try and cover a global syllabus and incorporate focus where sts needs dictate # ... |
| teflerinha |
12:48 PM |
@antoniaclare @Shaunwilden Agree- just said sthg v similar [but then I guess we would:) ] #eltchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:48 PM |
@antoniaclare @Marisa_C Dave Willis argues that coursebooks & grammar books present written grammar as all grammar. #ELtchat |
| waykatewit |
12:48 PM |
@antoniaclare @teflgeek it does #eltchat |
| ElkySmith |
12:48 PM |
@stiiiv @louisealix68 @teflerinha Yes, and what's taught isn't necessarily relevant. #eltchat |
| teflgeek |
12:49 PM |
@ElkySmith @teflerinha a prescriptive grammar syllabus like Walters suggests is not always ideal, #eltchat |
| worldteacher |
12:49 PM |
RT @cioccas: @teflgeek @antoniaclare And I love when Ss notice that they're noticing - big breakthroughs then! #ELTchat >Yes!! |
| stiiiv |
12:49 PM |
I think all Lg Ts need awareness of systemic functional grammar. Helps bring an understanding to materials that can transform T-ing #eltchat |
| antoniaclare |
12:49 PM |
@theteacherjames I think that traditionally this was the case, but not always nowadays #ELtchat |
| Shaunwilden |
12:49 PM |
@antoniaclare Interesting so how do you marry that with the preconceived syllabi of coursebooks? #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:49 PM |
RT @cioccas: @teflgeek @antoniaclare And I love when Ss notice that they're noticing - big breakthroughs then! #ELTchat |
| ElkySmith |
12:49 PM |
@theteacherjames @antoniaclare @Marisa_C That's my feeling too. #eltchat |
| MarjorieRosenbe |
12:49 PM |
@ElkySmith Helps me in university setting, or exam prep, less so in 1-1 adult instruction. #eltchat |
| MissLadyCaz |
12:49 PM |
@cioccas Thank you. It's only been out for one term. The missing word one has worked well too. http://t.co/ITHISdAD #eltchat |
| Marisa_C |
12:49 PM |
@theteacherjames he does make that point - and ts use that type of grammar only mostly #ELtchat |
| cioccas |
12:49 PM |
@teflgeek @antoniaclare And I love when Ss notice that they're noticing - big breakthroughs then! #ELTchat |
| AlexandraKouk |
12:50 PM |
This can be a good reference sourse for teachers, complete with relevant articles: http://t.co/0wb94exy (terminology example ) #eltchat |
| louisealix68 |
12:50 PM |
RT @teflerinha: @Shaunwilden @antoniaclare For me, CB is a starting point, and sthg you can return to whenever you like..but not a strai ... |
| ElkySmith |
12:50 PM |
@MarjorieRosenbe Yes, definitely not v useful in 1-1 but could you consider a classroom 1-1 x 18? #eltchat |
| antoniaclare |
12:50 PM |
@Shaunwilden I think the CB has to cover as globally as possible, and incorporate review, and the T needs to do the rest ;) #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:50 PM |
@Shaunwilden @antoniaclare For me, CB is a starting point, and sthg you can return to whenever you like..but not a straitjacket #eltchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:50 PM |
@ElkySmith @antoniaclare @Marisa_C He has some great examples of how we teach rules that are not even true. #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:51 PM |
@theteacherjames @antoniaclare Come on ,spill, which one do you mean? #eltchat |
| waykatewit |
12:51 PM |
@ElkySmith we must have both - a syllabus\plus needs #eltchat |
| Marisa_C |
12:51 PM |
@theteacherjames I know - great point abt reported speech in CBs - and how much time taken by that #eltchat |
| teflgeek |
12:51 PM |
RT @cioccas: @teflgeek @antoniaclare And I love when Ss notice that they're noticing - big breakthroughs then! #ELTchat the lightbulb moment |
| Shaunwilden |
12:51 PM |
@teflerinha @antoniaclare Ta, am just playing devil's advocate :-) #eltchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:51 PM |
@antoniaclare Hmm, I don't know, have you looked in "the most famous grammar book" recently? I was surprised by the things I found. #ELtchat |
| ShetlandESOL |
12:51 PM |
@Shaunwilden @ElkySmith Interesting. Ls often ask ?s about pres pfct way before we r "there" in the syllab. Do we wait or dive in? #eltchat |
| esolcourses |
12:51 PM |
@ElkySmith for e.g., adults can't wait a year before they learn to talk about their past! They need to learn that at beginner level #eltchat |
| Marisa_C |
12:52 PM |
RT @MarjorieRosenbe: Grammar for Business by Rachel Clarke et al (CUP) deals with written & spoken language. #eltchat |
| AlexandraKouk |
12:52 PM |
RT @stiiiv: @ElkySmith @teflerinha Walter may be partially right, but what's taught is not what is necessarily learned! #eltchat >so true!!! |
| MarjorieRosenbe |
12:52 PM |
Grammar for Business by Rachel Clarke et al (CUP) deals with written & spoken language. #eltchat |
| waykatewit |
12:52 PM |
RT @theteacherjames: @ElkySmith @antoniaclare @Marisa_C He has some great examples of how we teach rules that are not even true. #eltchat |
| antoniaclare |
12:52 PM |
@theteacherjames Not recently - I'll have to take a look ;) #eltchat |
| teflgeek |
12:52 PM |
@theteacherjames you mean "swan and walter" - or just swan? ;) #ELTchat |
| esolcourses |
12:52 PM |
@ElkySmith IMO a grammar based syllabus is way too rigid for the needs of many students. May work in some contexts, but not all #eltchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:52 PM |
@teflerinha @antoniaclare You know the one! #eltchat |
| ElkySmith |
12:52 PM |
@ShetlandESOL @Shaunwilden Have to judge whether the class generally can 'handle' it :-) #eltchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:53 PM |
@BrunoELT That's how I feel. Teaching rules that don't exist: why do we do it? #eltchat |
| esolcourses |
12:53 PM |
RT @AlexandraKouk: RT @stiiiv: @ElkySmith @teflerinha Walter may be partially right, but what's taught is not what is necessarily learne ... |
| louisealix68 |
12:53 PM |
@esolcourses unfortunately most over here are just that - grammar based. And many teacher go from a-z as aim is 'finish the book' #eltchat |
| ElkySmith |
12:54 PM |
@waykatewit Yes, in many cases a 'learner-generated' syllabus, while preferable, may not be practical or desirable. #eltchat |
| teacherphili |
12:54 PM |
@theteacherjames Is "Have you looked in 'the most famous grammar book?' similar to "have you read 'that Scottish Play?'" ? #ELtchat |
| waykatewit |
12:54 PM |
RT @MarjorieRosenbe: Grammar for Business by Rachel Clarke et al (CUP) deals with written & spoken language. #eltchat |
| Marisa_C |
12:55 PM |
RT @stiiiv: For TD I wld highly recommend Gramm & Context http://t.co/1t6w0Rpx #eltchat |
| louisealix68 |
12:55 PM |
take everything with pinch of salt and don't lose sight of the learner!! #eltchat |
| esolcourses |
12:55 PM |
@louisealix68 :-( Aiming to 'finish the book' is not a good approach IMO, (but then I would say that, being an unplugged type :) #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:55 PM |
RT @antoniaclare: @Marisa_C Speakout has sections on spoken grammar in Language Bank - I fought tooth and nail for these ;) #eltchat >gd 4 u |
| waykatewit |
12:55 PM |
RT @ElkySmith: @waykatewit Yes, in many cases a 'learner-generated' syllabus, while preferable, may not be practical or desirable. #eltchat |
| ElkySmith |
12:55 PM |
@louisealix68 Yes, exactly. #eltchat |
| MarjorieRosenbe |
12:55 PM |
@Marisa_C Michael McCarthy also co-author. Interesting stuff. #eltchat |
| ElkySmith |
12:55 PM |
@antoniaclare @Marisa_C Forgive my naivety, but why was it so hard? #eltchat |
| stiiiv |
12:55 PM |
For TD I wld highly recommend Gramm & Context http://t.co/Jp2mOI48 #eltchat |
| Shaunwilden |
12:55 PM |
moving into the last 5 minutes so getting near your final words of wisdom :-) #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:55 PM |
@theteacherjames @BrunoELT Tendencies rather than rules- or is that semantics? #eltchat |
| louisealix68 |
12:55 PM |
@ElkySmith or "allowed"! #eltchat |
| Marisa_C |
12:55 PM |
Apart from the grammar of spoken English what other books would you recomment for Ts researching grammar points? #ELTchat |
| antoniaclare |
12:55 PM |
@Marisa_C Speakout has sections on spoken grammar in Language Bank - I fought tooth and nail for these ;) #eltchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:55 PM |
@teacherphili :-) #ELtchat |
| louisealix68 |
12:56 PM |
@esolcourses Agree wholeheartedly! #eltchat |
| antoniaclare |
12:56 PM |
@ElkySmith You'd be surprised at how hard it can be to make changes to the set grammar syllabus for CBs - editorial pressure #eltchat |
| Marisa_C |
12:56 PM |
RT @ShetlandESOL: @Marisa_C Scott Thornbury's Language Tasks for Teachers is xcellent #eltchat |
| ElkySmith |
12:56 PM |
Do T training courses start Ts off with bad habits re. grammar instruction? #eltchat |
| stiiiv |
12:56 PM |
RT @teflerinha: @theteacherjames @BrunoELT Tendencies rather than rules: definitely. + ideally REASONS 4 the tendencies #eltchat |
| ShetlandESOL |
12:56 PM |
@Marisa_C Scott Thornbury's Language Tasks for Teachers is xcellent #eltchat |
| Shaunwilden |
12:56 PM |
@louisealix68 But salt can be bad for your health :-) #eltchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:56 PM |
@teflerinha @BrunoELT That would be a shift in the right direction, & definitely not semantics! #eltchat |
| Shaunwilden |
12:57 PM |
@ElkySmith @antoniaclare On the books i worked on it tends to be done by the editors #eltchat |
| teflgeek |
12:57 PM |
@ElkySmith @antoniaclare most syllabi these days tied to CEFR no ? #eltchat |
| AlexandraKouk |
12:57 PM |
That's one reference book http://t.co/osA0zWx6 #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:57 PM |
RT @teflgeek: Final words: explicit or otherwise, teaching not equal understanding, and understanding does not mean use #eltchat |
| waykatewit |
12:57 PM |
RT @ElkySmith: Do T training courses start Ts off with bad habits re. grammar instruction? #eltchat |
| stiiiv |
12:57 PM |
@ElkySmith Definitely! They teach grammar as a system of rules, rather than as tools to shape and reflect experience in pers ways #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:57 PM |
@antoniaclare @ElkySmith #eltchat Honest belief by editors that it isn't what most teachers want (& they may have a point) |
| Marisa_C |
12:57 PM |
@ElkySmith what do you mean? #eltchat |
| ElkySmith |
12:57 PM |
@antoniaclare Who sets the syllabus? Is it just following convention? #eltchat |
| louisealix68 |
12:57 PM |
@Shaunwilden ok, so pinch of pure dark chocolate then? #eltchat |
| teacherphili |
12:57 PM |
@Shaunwilden @louisealix68 that's prob. why we should only take 'a pinch' ;-) #ELTchat |
| Shaunwilden |
12:57 PM |
@teacherphili Lol #eltchat |
| teflgeek |
12:57 PM |
Final words: explicit or otherwise, teaching not equal understanding, and understanding does not mean use #eltchat |
| MissLadyCaz |
12:58 PM |
RT @antoniaclare: We don't need grammar to drive the lessons and be the sole focus, but in small, relevant doses explicit instruction ca ... |
| antoniaclare |
12:58 PM |
Let's not throw the grammar baby out with the bathwater ;) #eltchat |
| theteacherjames |
12:58 PM |
@teflgeek You might be right, you might be wrong... #ELTchat |
| esolcourses |
12:58 PM |
RT @ElkySmith: @antoniaclare Who sets the syllabus? Is it just following convention? #eltchat my guess would be probably yes, in many cases |
| MarjorieRosenbe |
12:58 PM |
@teflerinha @antoniaclare @Marisa_C Great idea. We try to point out differences as well in course books. Makes perfect sense. #eltchat |
| antoniaclare |
12:58 PM |
We don't need grammar to drive the lessons and be the sole focus, but in small, relevant doses explicit instruction can be useful #eltchat |
| AlexandraKouk |
12:58 PM |
RT @louisealix68: take everything with pinch of salt and don't lose sight of the learner!! #eltchat |
| esolcourses |
12:59 PM |
@ElkySmith @antoniaclare ... although I could be wrong. (By setting the syllabus I assume we are talking exam boards?) #eltchat |
| Shaunwilden |
12:59 PM |
@teacherphili @antoniaclare I am not actually sure if I know what that means :-) #eltchat |
| louisealix68 |
12:59 PM |
@teacherphili like the idea of "top quote" nominee! #ELTchat |
| stiiiv |
12:59 PM |
@BrunoELT @teflerinha @theteacherjames We need to teach 'the why' of grammar. Helps give Ss control and a sense that gramm=choice #eltchat |
| ElkySmith |
12:59 PM |
@teflgeek @antoniaclare Not when it comes to grammar although #englishprofile might have an influence on that over the nxt fw yrs? #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
12:59 PM |
RT @antoniaclare: We don't need grammar to drive the lessons and be the sole focus, but in small, relevant doses explicit instruction ca ... |
| waykatewit |
12:59 PM |
RT @stiiiv: RT @teflerinha: @theteacherjames @BrunoELT Tendencies rather than rules: definitely. + ideally REASONS 4 the tendencies #eltchat |
| teacherphili |
12:59 PM |
@antoniaclare today's best quote nominee #ELTchat |
| MarjorieRosenbe |
1:00 PM |
@antoniaclare Agree. Adults need foundation to hang the rest of it on in EFL courses. #eltchat |
| esolcourses |
1:00 PM |
Thanks for another great #eltchat, everyone! gtg as lunch calls, but catch you later, hopefully :-) |
| antoniaclare |
1:00 PM |
RT @ElkySmith: @teflgeek Not when it comes to grammar although #englishprofile might have an influence on that over the nxt fw yrs? #eltchat |
| teacherphili |
1:00 PM |
Summary writer? #ELTchat > I nominate @teflerinha |
| teacherphili |
1:00 PM |
RT @louisealix68like the idea of "top quote" nominee! #ELTchat > @Shaunwilden likes it, usually ;_) |
| waykatewit |
1:00 PM |
RT @stiiiv: @BrunoELT @teflerinha @theteacherjames We need to teach 'the why' of grammar. Helps give Ss control and a sense that gramm=c ... |
| teflerinha |
1:00 PM |
@ElkySmith @teflgeek @antoniaclare Yes, I'm interested to see what impact English profile might have #eltchat |
| antoniaclare |
1:00 PM |
Yes, CEFR and exam boards, Ministry of Ed...and then the author and editorial team, with feedback from other Ts #eltchat |
| AlexandraKouk |
1:01 PM |
RT @cioccas: Thanks all for another fun, fast & furious #ELTchat |
| AlannahFitz |
1:01 PM |
RT @stiiiv: RT @cioccas: @Marisa_C Corpora save the day again! A Handbook of Spoken Grammar http://t.co/EjFO74m9 #ELTchat |
| Marisa_C |
1:01 PM |
I think we have reached the end of this chat - do we have a volunteer for the summary - a keen blogger ? #ELTchat |
| cioccas |
1:01 PM |
Thanks all for another fun, fast & furious #ELTchat |
| antoniaclare |
1:01 PM |
@teacherphili ;) thank you #ELTchat |
| teflerinha |
1:01 PM |
@Shaunwilden @teacherphili Thanks, Shaun, fine with me. Rather busy this week. #eltchat |
| ElkySmith |
1:01 PM |
@Marisa_C That you stick to your lesson plan and your lesson plan comes from the CB. Really wondering about this question a lot atm #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
1:01 PM |
@teacherphili Cheers...only did it the week before last. But will, if no-one else willing (please be willing!) #eltchat |
| Shaunwilden |
1:01 PM |
@teacherphili @teflerinha I'll do it #eltchat |
| teacherphili |
1:02 PM |
@theteacherjames any chance of getting the lady herself on 'the blower' for a podcast? #ELTchat |
| teflerinha |
1:02 PM |
@Shaunwilden @teacherphili Yes, I would usually offer because my topic..but thanks, Shaun- and good reasoning. #eltchat |
| Marisa_C |
1:02 PM |
@ElkySmith Oh no!!! but we get them to read stuff abt this appriach #eltchat |
| teacherphili |
1:02 PM |
@teflerinha only coz u suggested it. i'm happy to do but @Shaunwilden just offered it #ELTchat |
| Shaunwilden |
1:02 PM |
@Marisa_C Yes i said I'd do it #eltchat |
| stiiiv |
1:02 PM |
Great chat today. Thx all. Only dropped in by accident but glad to have got caught up in it all! #eltchat |
| Shaunwilden |
1:02 PM |
@teflerinha @teacherphili Well if we do get to speak to catherine it would be good to know what everyone said :-) #eltchat |
| ELTchat |
1:03 PM |
RT @Marisa_C: 21 BST What makes a good teacher trainer i.e. characteristics, NS/NNS, (recent)experience, cultural experience… #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
1:03 PM |
@ElkySmith Think this could be another #eltchat What you learnt abt teaching grammar and what you teach other teachers! |
| Shaunwilden |
1:03 PM |
@teflgeek Make sure you're explicit ;-) #eltchat |
| Marisa_C |
1:03 PM |
RT @Shaunwilden: 21 BST What makes a good teacher trainer i.e. characteristics, NS/NNS, (recent)experience, cultural experience… #eltchat |
| louisealix68 |
1:03 PM |
RT @teflgeek: thanks all for a great #eltchat. Now time to go plan some grammar lessons! |
| Shaunwilden |
1:03 PM |
21 BST What makes a good teacher trainer i.e. characteristics, NS/NNS, (recent)experience, cultural experience… #eltchat |
| teflgeek |
1:03 PM |
thanks all for a great #eltchat. Now time to go plan some grammar lessons! |
| worldteacher |
1:03 PM |
Thanks for a great #eltchat everyone - was lurking towards the end, but picked up loads of interesting ideas - thanks! |
| louisealix68 |
1:03 PM |
goodness that was a fast and furious #eltchat but interesting - as always! |
| MissLadyCaz |
1:04 PM |
Great chat tonight on an always interesting topic! #eltchat |
| teflerinha |
1:04 PM |
#eltchat Thanks everyone. That was completely manic... #eltchat |
| antoniaclare |
1:04 PM |
Thanks all - great chat (as usual). See you soon. #eltchat |
| ELTchat |
1:04 PM |
Thank you all for participating in today's #ELTchat Join us again this evening to talk about qualities for teacher trainers |
| theteacherjames |
1:04 PM |
@teacherphili @Shaunwilden is on the case. #ELTchat |
| ElkySmith |
1:04 PM |
RT @theteacherjames: Phew, ELTchatters love talking about grammar! Thanks everyone. Hats off to fellow mods @Shaunwilden @Marisa_C & ... |
| theteacherjames |
1:04 PM |
Phew, ELTchatters love talking about grammar! Thanks everyone. Hats off to fellow mods @Shaunwilden @Marisa_C & @BrunoELT. #eltchat |
| ElkySmith |
1:04 PM |
@Marisa_C I guess it comes dwn to trainees' ability to grasp what's rlly important for effective teaching rather than the training? #eltchat |
| Marisa_C |
1:05 PM |
@theteacherjames hey I am a confessed grammar lover in case I gave the opposite opinion :-) #eltchat |
| MarjorieRosenbe |
1:05 PM |
@Shaunwilden Thanks Shuan. # eltchat |
| theteacherjames |
1:05 PM |
RT @ELTchat: RT @Marisa_C: 21 BST What makes a good teacher trainer i.e. characteristics, NS/NNS, (recent)experience, cultural experien ... |
| Shaunwilden |
1:05 PM |
@teflerinha Yes very esp for a lunchtime #eltchat |
| waykatewit |
1:05 PM |
RT @teflerinha: @ElkySmith Think this could be another #eltchat What you learnt abt teaching grammar and what you teach other teachers! |
| theteacherjames |
1:06 PM |
@Marisa_C I want to be like you when I grow up! #eltchat |
| Marisa_C |
1:06 PM |
@BrunoELT cheers & misses to you and Rio :-) #eltchat |
| theteacherjames |
1:07 PM |
@Marisa_C Okay, maybe not... ;-) #eltchat |
| Marisa_C |
1:07 PM |
RT @theteacherjames: @Marisa_C I want to be like you when I grow up! #eltchat > unless u meant you are so young and I am so old.....:-D |
| Marisa_C |
1:07 PM |
RT @theteacherjames: @Marisa_C I want to be like you when I grow up! #eltchat > You can't! I read grammar books in bed .... |
| fionamau |
1:08 PM |
RT @esolcourses: RT @fionamau: a new topic 4 #eltpics For the next 2 weeks the theme is LITERATURE so interpret & tweet away w/ has ... |
| StanzaSL |
1:08 PM |
RT @teflgeek: Final words: explicit or otherwise, teaching not equal understanding, and understanding does not mean use #eltchat |
| Absorb_English |
1:12 PM |
RT @esolcourses: RT @AlexandraKouk: This seems relevant - Teaching ESL Students to "Notice" Grammar http://t.co/vBZwGXQQ #ELTCHAT |
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