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Reconciling dogme and an unplugged approach with situations where formal assessment plays a key role

Page history last edited by Shaun 12 years, 11 months ago

This is the transcript of the ELTchat on 09.11.2011 about Reconciling dogme and an unplugged approach with situations where formal assessment plays a key role in student motivation. 

 

username time status
Shaunwilden 12:03 PM Welcome everyone -dogme with situs where formal assessment plays a key role in sts motivation is the fun for the next hour #ELTchat
yitzha_sarwono 12:04 PM RT @Shaunwilden: So then bring on the dogmatists and I promise to behave #ELTchat
AlexandraKouk 12:04 PM RT @tonygurr: RT @brad5patterson: Just blogged:  Standing on our PLN‚Äôs shoulders http://t.co/jSqbAefa #eltchat #tesolfr #aplanet
juanalejandro26 12:04 PM I must confess I didn't know what dogme was, and I worked that way once already! #ELTChat
yitzha_sarwono 12:04 PM RT @Shaunwilden: Welcome everyone -dogme with situs where formal assessment plays a key role in sts motivation is the fun for the next hour #ELTchat
Shaunwilden 12:04 PM @theteacherjames Unless provoked of course ;-) #ELTchat
rliberni 12:05 PM RT @Shaunwilden: Welcome everyone -dogme with situs where formal assessment plays a key role in sts motivation is the fun for the next hour #ELTchat
ljp2010 12:05 PM #ELTchat Can someone explain the diff. between dogme and "winging it"?
theteacherjames 12:05 PM Sorry @AnthonyGaughan can't make this #dogme #eltchat. Any other dogme-ites there? @dalecoulter @harrisonmike @LukeMeddings @thornburyscott
AlexandraKouk 12:05 PM RT @barbsaka: What kind of formal assessment are we talking about? #eltchat
Shaunwilden 12:05 PM RT @barbsaka: What kind of formal assessment are we talking about? #eltchat
PatrickAndrews 12:06 PM @ljp2010 Is not using materials synonymous with winging it? #eltchat
AlexandraKouk 12:06 PM @rliberni Great to chat with you again :-))) #eltchat
bethcagnol 12:06 PM RT @theteacherjames: @cerirhiannon Have a great webinar, make sure you tweet the link to it later. #eltchat
esolcourses 12:06 PM @theteacherjames I'm here, tho' will be multi-tasking for part of it as I'm also in a webinar :-) #dogme #eltchat
rliberni 12:06 PM Hi there everyone sorry a bit late :-( #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:06 PM @Shaunwilden I'll see what I can do? #ELTchat
rliberni 12:06 PM RT @barbsaka: What kind of formal assessment are we talking about? #eltchat
AlexandraKouk 12:06 PM RT @ljp2010: #ELTchat Can someone explain the diff. between dogme and "winging it"?
teflgeek 12:07 PM Morning all - sorry I'm late  #eltchat
PatrickAndrews 12:07 PM @ljp2010 Would have thought it is often the opposite of winging it #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:07 PM @ljp2010 Straight for the jugular with that question! Dogme teachers don't plan, but they are very prepared. #ELTchat
ljp2010 12:07 PM @PatrickAndrews   #ELTchat  A good question.  No, you can still plan for a material- free class
esolcourses 12:07 PM RT @ljp2010: #ELTchat Can someone explain the diff. between dogme and "winging it"? ] winging it=unprepared #dogme=prepared/go with the flow
Shaunwilden 12:07 PM @ljp2010 Experience? Skill of the teacher? #ELTchat
juanalejandro26 12:07 PM I may say a difference according to what I do when I'm mad at my students! #ELTChat
rliberni 12:07 PM RT @ljp2010: #ELTchat Can someone explain the diff. between dogme and "winging it"? Great question!
AlexandraKouk 12:08 PM RT @bethcagnol: Jumping in here: shouldn't the teacher be prepared to adapt? If sts don't want Dogme then don't do Dogme. #ELTCHAT
ljp2010 12:08 PM #ELTchat @theteacherjames  So does that mean it's for the experienced teacher only?
bethcagnol 12:08 PM Jumping in here: shouldn't the teacher be prepared to adapt? If sts don't want Dogme then don't do Dogme. #ELTCHAT
theteacherjames 12:08 PM @esolcourses Good to see you, I decided to watch the webinar later. #dogme #eltchat
rliberni 12:08 PM RT @Shaunwilden: @ljp2010 Experience? Skill of the teacher? #ELTchat
PatrickAndrews 12:08 PM RT @esolcourses: RT @ljp2010: #ELTchat Can someone explain the diff. between dogme and "winging it"? ] winging it=unprepared #dogme=prepared/go with the flow
PatrickAndrews 12:09 PM @ljp2010 Because it is extra challenging to make use of opportunities #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:09 PM RT @esolcourses: RT @ljp2010: #ELTchat Can someone explain the diff. between dogme and "winging it"? ] winging it=unprepared #dogme=prepared/go with the flow
yitzha_sarwono 12:09 PM happily observing #eltchat on dogme and learning a thing or two from the great people there
rliberni 12:09 PM @barbsaka @AlexandraKouk  me too #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:09 PM @ljp2010 Not at all, like pre-service teachers can be trained. See @AnthonyGaughan's work for example. #ELTchat
AlexandraKouk 12:09 PM RT @barbsaka: Still wondering about the contexts where teachers are using dogme and formal assessment. Was there an answer? #eltchat
rliberni 12:09 PM @ljp2010  a dogme approach works well with my stds who are very advanced and  don't fit into any elt 'boxes'  #eltchat
barbsaka 12:09 PM Still wondering about the contexts where teachers are using dogme and formal assessment. Was there an answer? #eltchat
juanalejandro26 12:09 PM when I don't feel like teaching, I improvise a class. On the other hand, a dogme class is prepared in order to encourage students  #ELTChat
ljp2010 12:09 PM @PatrickAndrews   #ELTchat How so?
Shaunwilden 12:09 PM RT @bethcagnol: Jumping in here: shouldn't the teacher be prepared to adapt? If sts don't want Dogme then don't do Dogme. #ELTCHAT
barbsaka 12:10 PM @teflgeek Perhaps the problem is that dogme approach allows students to go in self-determined direction? #eltchat
ljp2010 12:10 PM #ELTchat okay, sorry Shaun.  So formal assessment - achievement tests?  Prof tests?
esolcourses 12:10 PM RT @Shaunwilden Remember this #ELTchat  is  about dogme & formal assessment, tho of course we need to make sure everyone understands terms
rliberni 12:10 PM RT @PatrickAndrews: @ljp2010 Would have thought it is often the opposite of winging it #eltchat yes as you're more 'exposed' I think
analuisalozano 12:10 PM RT @esolcourses: RT @ljp2010: #ELTchat Can someone explain the diff. between dogme and "winging it"? ] winging it=unprepared #dogme=prepared
AlexandraKouk 12:10 PM RT @teflgeek: Why should there be a problem?  If the assessment is a good one does it matter how the students get there?  #eltchat
teflgeek 12:10 PM Why should there be a problem?  If the assessment is a good one does it matter how the students get there?  #eltchat
yitzha_sarwono 12:10 PM RT @bethcagnol: Jumping in here: shouldn't the teacher be prepared to adapt? If sts don't want Dogme then don't do Dogme. #ELTCHAT
rliberni 12:10 PM RT @theteacherjames: @ljp2010 Straight for the jugular with that question! Dogme teachers don't plan, but they are very prepared. #ELTchat
Shaunwilden 12:10 PM Remember this #ELTchat  is  about dogme and formal assessment, though of course we need to make sure everyone understand what each are
rliberni 12:11 PM RT @barbsaka: Still wondering about the contexts where teachers are using dogme and formal assessment. Was there an answer? #eltchat
brad5patterson 12:11 PM RT @esolcourses: RT @ljp2010: #ELTchat Can someone explain the diff. between dogme and "winging it"? ] winging it=unprepared #dogme=prepared/go with the flow
annisaasri3424 12:11 PM RT @yitzha_sarwono: the thing about dogme in Indonesia; it doesn't really exist unless you're in a small English course with not enough resources! #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:11 PM @bethcagnol Nobody said it has to be 100% dogme. Use as when applicable. Sts needs always paramount. #ELTCHAT
Shaunwilden 12:11 PM @teflgeek Fair point but I presume the topic setter works in a strictly controlled environ where covering material is key? #ELTchat
rliberni 12:11 PM @teflgeek  welcome we're on dogme and looking for definitions #eltchat
PatrickAndrews 12:11 PM @teflgeek Problem is a lot of assessment is not so great #eltchat
esolcourses 12:11 PM RT @barbsaka: Still wondering about the contexts where teachers are using dogme and formal assessment. Was there an answer? #eltchat
yitzha_sarwono 12:11 PM the thing about dogme in Indonesia; it doesn't really exist unless you're in a small English course with not enough resources! #eltchat
barbsaka 12:12 PM @teflgeek That makes sense :) #eltchat
rliberni 12:12 PM Waht are we meaning by 'formal assessment' here - exams? #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:12 PM @ljp2010 Pleasure. What he does is fascinating, I think. #ELTchat
esolcourses 12:12 PM @barbsaka think it probably depends how rigid the means of formal assessment is, and the criteria being assessed. #eltchat
teflgeek 12:12 PM @barbsaka only an issue if the testing specific vocabulary or grammar items.  Broader competencies should be developed regardless?  #eltchat
ljp2010 12:12 PM #ELTchat @theteacherjames   Thx, btw.  Am checking out Anthony's work.
juanalejandro26 12:12 PM RT @theteacherjames: @bethcagnol Nobody said it has to be 100% dogme. Use as when applicable. Sts needs always paramount. #ELTCHAT
barbsaka 12:13 PM RT @Shaunwilden: 'Teaching unplugged' has a section about dogme and exam classes, page 94 and 95 if you  have the book #ELTchat
Shaunwilden 12:13 PM 'Teaching unplugged' has a section about dogme and exam classes, page 94 and 95 if you  have the book #ELTchat
esolcourses 12:13 PM RT @rliberni: Waht are we meaning by 'formal assessment' here - exams? #eltchat ] not necessarily - could be portfolio based, perhaps?
theteacherjames 12:14 PM @yitzha_sarwono The reality is that dogme's influence on the wider world of language learning hasn't really been felt yet. #eltchat
PatrickAndrews 12:14 PM @esolcourses @rliberni Portfolio could be combined with dogme #ELTchat
chrisjw133 12:14 PM #eltchat I saw an activity from "Teaching unplugged" that I thought could be adapted for formal assessments. http://t.co/MCSJuXm3
teflgeek 12:14 PM @Shaunwilden point taken...  but in principle (!) ...  #eltchat
AlexandraKouk 12:14 PM Materials lk pastpapers, exam prep 4 specific types of test questions have2Bused extensively-how much room does that leave 4 dogme? #ELTCHAT
theteacherjames 12:15 PM @nickcherkas Don't forget the #eltchat hashtag!
PatrickAndrews 12:15 PM @teflgeek Think it often is #ELTchat
Shaunwilden 12:15 PM RT @teflgeek: @PatrickAndrews so the problem not the teaching method but the testing method? #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:15 PM RT @nickcherkas: @bethcagnol so do we need to plan when to use dogme in lessons, or just use it when the opportunity arises?  #eltchat
AlexandraKouk 12:15 PM @teflgeek not necessarily a problem :-) #eltchat
esolcourses 12:15 PM @teflgeek  @barbsaka IME, of the problems with formal assessment is that learners are often tested on a narrow range of skills #ELTChat
teflgeek 12:15 PM @PatrickAndrews so the problem not the teaching method but the testing method? #eltchat
yitzha_sarwono 12:16 PM @theteacherjames i thought so too,here maybe cause the fear of us teachers to take things for granted & coming in unprepared #eltchat
esolcourses 12:16 PM RT @PatrickAndrews: @esolcourses @rliberni Portfolio could be combined with dogme #ELTchat ] agree.  Has worked well for me in the past
Shaunwilden 12:16 PM @theteacherjames @nickcherkas @bethcagnol Cant both situations be the case? #ELTchat
brad5patterson 12:16 PM RT @theteacherjames: @yitzha_sarwono The reality is that dogme's influence on the wider world of language learning hasn't really been felt yet. #eltchat
rliberni 12:16 PM @PatrickAndrews @esolcourses  if portfolio then dogme fits well but if prescribed testing not sure dep on test #eltchat
ljp2010 12:17 PM #ELTchat @theteacherjames Hasn't dogme always been there in those moments of "Teach the sts not the plan"?
theteacherjames 12:17 PM @nickcherkas There are some things we teach in a language classroom that are not lang. i.e test taking skills - Flexibility is key #eltchat
teflgeek 12:17 PM @esolcourses so the need is more to develop teacher / management test writing skills?  #eltchat
PatrickAndrews 12:17 PM @rliberni @esolcourses Would agree #ELTchat
rliberni 12:18 PM RT @PatrickAndrews: @theteacherjames @nickcherkas Yes and need to get used to kinds of tasks involved in the test #ELTchat
ljp2010 12:18 PM #ELTchat @rliberni  True.  some teachers think coursebook = the course
PatrickAndrews 12:18 PM @theteacherjames @nickcherkas Yes and need to get used to kinds of tasks involved in the test #ELTchat
nickcherkas 12:18 PM @Shaunwilden @theteacherjames @bethcagnol I think so - some days  dogme just doesn't seem to work, & some when it does #ELTchat
rliberni 12:18 PM @yitzha_sarwono  dogme tchrs are always prepared  it's maybe giving up the prop of a txtbook imo & starting with std needs/wants #eltchat
bethcagnol 12:18 PM You can also test (review) your sts based on previous Dogme-guided lessons. #ELTCHAT
reditho 12:18 PM Heading for the webinar . Interesting #eltchat today sorry I can't stay... lurking a bit.
Shaunwilden 12:18 PM RT @ljp2010: #ELTchat @theteacherjames Hasn't dogme always been there in those moments of "Teach the sts not the plan"? - Yep :-)
esolcourses 12:18 PM @rliberni @PatrickAndrews agree... prescribed testing is a very "one-size-fits" all means of assessment. Hard to square the two #ELTChat
rliberni 12:19 PM RT @esolcourses: @teflgeek actually, I'd argue for the opposite, i.e. there is a need for more learner-centred methods of assessment & less rigidity #ELTChat
esolcourses 12:19 PM @teflgeek actually, I'd argue for the opposite, i.e. there is a need for more learner-centred methods of assessment & less rigidity #ELTChat
bethcagnol 12:19 PM @nickcherkas @theteacherjames Planning for Dogme? I wouldn't, in my opinion. Expecting it? Yes. #ELTCHAT
PatrickAndrews 12:19 PM @ljp2010 @theteacherjames Yes, think so.  I think that Allwright once wrote about making use of learning opportunities #ELTchat
juanalejandro26 12:19 PM RT @ljp2010: #ELTchat @rliberni  True.  some teachers think coursebook = the course
theteacherjames 12:19 PM @Shaunwilden @ljp2010 Nobody claimed it was new. What they did was formalise it, give it a framework & validate it as an approach. #ELTchat
teflgeek 12:20 PM @esolcourses OK, but surely that depends on the purpose of your testing?   #eltchat
brad5patterson 12:20 PM RT @Shaunwilden: RT @ljp2010: #ELTchat @theteacherjames Hasn't dogme always been there in those moments of "Teach the sts not the plan"? - Yep :-)
barbsaka 12:20 PM @Shaunwilden Really good question. #eltchat
bethcagnol 12:20 PM I also feel the sts should know right from the beginning that you might go Dogme from time to time. #ELTCHAT
rliberni 12:20 PM @esolcourses  I agree but then we come up against the commercial world and that is like moving a mountain :-) #eltchat
AlexandraKouk 12:20 PM RT @Shaunwilden: #ELTchat  Does the fact the most schools dont actually test properly make dogme harder to rec‚Ķ (cont) http://t.co/Z2EY3txn
esolcourses 12:20 PM @teflgeek ...though of course, I would say that, being a #dogmeist ;-) #ELTChat
Shaunwilden 12:20 PM #ELTchat  Does the fact the most schools dont actually test properly make dogme harder to reconcile most test‚Ķ (cont) http://t.co/2ft8Fme0
rliberni 12:21 PM Testing can be a learner centred appch if they need IELTS or TOEFL then it HAS to take centre stage #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:21 PM @chrisjw133 @yitzha_sarwono We need to put to bed this idea that dogme = unprepared. See @dalecoulter's blog for great examples. #ELTCHAT
yitzha_sarwono 12:21 PM @rliberni exactly why it's not really working here, for me at least.Our parents & bosses are more of a textbook kind of type #eltchat
reditho 12:21 PM dont know much abt dogme but ive always had the impression U could go unplugged & match wht U have done 2 the syllabus "backwards" #eltchat
Shaunwilden 12:21 PM @theteacherjames Damn I said I would behave :-) #ELTchat
Shaunwilden 12:21 PM @theteacherjames And hype it beyond belief? #ELTchat
rliberni 12:21 PM RT @AlexandraKouk: RT @Shaunwilden: #ELTchat  Does the fact the most schools dont actually test properly make dogme harder to rec‚Ķ (cont) http://t.co/Z2EY3txn
yitzha_sarwono 12:22 PM RT @ljp2010: #ELTchat @rliberni  True.  some teachers think coursebook = the course
yitzha_sarwono 12:22 PM RT @Shaunwilden: #ELTchat  Does the fact the most schools dont actually test properly make dogme harder to reconcile most test‚Ķ (cont) http://t.co/2ft8Fme0
rliberni 12:23 PM @teflgeek  how not so? #eltchat
brad5patterson 12:23 PM Great point RT @rliberni Testing can be a learner centred appch if they need IELTS or TOEFL then it HAS to take centre stage #eltchat
teflgeek 12:23 PM RT @rliberni: Testing can be a learner centred appch if they need IELTS or TOEFL then it HAS to take centre stage #eltchat  Not so!
yitzha_sarwono 12:23 PM @theteacherjames @chrisjw133 @dalecoulter hehehe I know that, convincing people here that is the hardest part #eltchat
harrisonmike 12:23 PM @theteacherjames What's going on? #dogmetotherescue #eltchat
esolcourses 12:23 PM @rliberni yes, can appreciate that...  I think a lot depends on the levels and also the purpose of assessment, as @teflgeek says #eltchat
rliberni 12:23 PM @reditho @yitzha_sarwono  some schools do dictate how things will be & it's difficult to go a different way. #eltchat
AlexandraKouk 12:23 PM #ELTCHAT How could we motivate exam candidates through dogme?
tonygurr 12:23 PM RT @Shaunwilden: RT @ljp2010: #ELTchat @theteacherjames Hasn't dogme always been there in those moments of "Teach the sts not the plan"? - Yep :-)
Shaunwilden 12:23 PM @theteacherjames @chrisjw133 @yitzha_sarwono @dalecoulter Agreed, dogmatists must get sick of the unprepared link #ELTchat
reditho 12:23 PM so I don't see how dogme is in conflict with formal assessment? can't formal assessment be authentic? or is it only about testing? #eltchat
bethcagnol 12:24 PM Add Dogme to the syllabus. #ELTCHAT
Shaunwilden 12:24 PM RT @harrisonmike: Isn't formative assessment based on what's covered in a dogme classroom a much better idea? Not personalised tests, but amalgamate #eltchat
harrisonmike 12:24 PM Isn't formative assessment based on what's covered in a dogme classroom a much better idea? Not personalised tests, but amalgamate #eltchat
teflgeek 12:24 PM @rliberni Most of the research says that test preparation has little or no effect of test performance- #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:25 PM @yitzha_sarwono @chrisjw133 That's why we need to keep detailed records of what has been achieved in class, so we can prove it. #eltchat
harrisonmike 12:25 PM Better than giving a random content &lang test that mite b way 2easy 4some &2difficult for others. Test at the point of need #eltchat
Shaunwilden 12:25 PM RT @bethcagnol: Add Dogme to the syllabus. #ELTCHAT Why?
teflgeek 12:25 PM @rliberni   but then there's a difference between test familiarisation and test practice.   #eltchat
brad5patterson 12:25 PM #eltchat @AlexandraKouk I think by providing a class environment where they are central motivates. Of course if there is material to cover..
barbsaka 12:26 PM It sounds a bit as if dogme can work well for test prep, but not necessarily being linked to a test #eltchat
yitzha_sarwono 12:26 PM :-) RT @harrisonmike @theteacherjames What's going on? #dogmetotherescue #eltchat
AlexandraKouk 12:26 PM @brad5patterson Agreed. Perhaps the problems start when there IS a lot of exam material to cover - how do we use Dogme then? #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:26 PM RT @Shaunwilden: 'Teaching unplugged' has a section about dogme and exam classes, page 94 and 95 if you  have the book #ELTchat
rliberni 12:26 PM RT @cybraryman1: @bethcagnol My Dogme page:  http://t.co/ib5JPbxX #eltchat
cybraryman1 12:26 PM @bethcagnol My Dogme page:  http://t.co/ib5JPbxX #eltchat
ljp2010 12:26 PM #ELTchat  @harrisonmike Could you define "test at point of need"?
rliberni 12:26 PM @teflgeek  I'm not sure I agree  totally - I'm not talking about test practice but test prep  #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:26 PM RT @Shaunwilden: @theteacherjames @chrisjw133 @yitzha_sarwono @dalecoulter Agreed, dogmatists must get sick of the unprepared link #ELTchat
Shaunwilden 12:27 PM @e_siemens Cos i moderating #ELTchat  at mo - Tomorrow will be pack me bags and get flight day so then I will be :-)
harrisonmike 12:27 PM @ljp2010 Test learners on what they need to learn (which you have addressed thru emergent lang development in lessons) #eltchat
esolcourses 12:27 PM RT @harrisonmike: Isn't formative assessment based on what's covered in a dogme classroom a much better idea? Not personalised tests, but amalgamate #eltchat
rliberni 12:27 PM RT @barbsaka: It sounds a bit as if dogme can work well for test prep, but not necessarily being linked to a test #eltchat
Shaunwilden 12:27 PM @AlexandraKouk @brad5patterson Dithc the exam material? Isnt too much of it overkill anyway? #ELTchat
teflgeek 12:27 PM @rliberni learners need to know what they're up against, sure!  but for IELTS et al, language development is more important.   #eltchat
AlexandraKouk 12:28 PM RT @barbsaka: It sounds a bit as if dogme can work well for test prep, but not necessarily being linked to a test #eltchat
ljp2010 12:28 PM #ELTchat @harrisonmike Agree.  So what other options are there?
rliberni 12:28 PM @teflgeek  of course , that goes w/out saying but they must know that your focus is getting them thru the exam so it is significant #eltchat
AlexandraKouk 12:28 PM RT @Shaunwilden:  Dithc the exam material? ...? #ELTchat> True! Realistically though, are most teachers allowed to do that?
brad5patterson 12:28 PM #eltchat That is the challenge @AlexandraKouk possibly have them present some material in pairs.  Listen/ Keep the space open to part needs
harrisonmike 12:28 PM @ljp2010 e.g. if a learner already knows the past simple inside out, why test them on it?? #eltchat
bethcagnol 12:28 PM @Shaunwilden Just so the sts are informed and don't think you're winging it. #ELTCHAT include a description of Dogme in the syllabus.
ljp2010 12:28 PM #ELTchat @harrisonmike  and the method of testing to employ?
yitzha_sarwono 12:29 PM @theteacherjames @chrisjw133 always write down my lesson plans,but based on textbook .Breaking the habit here,is the challenge ^^ #eltchat
brad5patterson 12:29 PM Haha... until the scores come back RT @Shaunwilden @AlexandraKouk @brad5patterson Ditch the exam material?... #ELTchat
bethcagnol 12:29 PM @Shaunwilden In France, the sts would need it because Dogme is a 180 from what they expect. They appreciate being informed. #ELTCHAT
harrisonmike 12:29 PM This is formative assessment isn't it folks? #eltchat
Shaunwilden 12:29 PM @bethcagnol Ah I misunderstood you, yes that is an excellent idea . #ELTchat
yitzha_sarwono 12:30 PM RT @barbsaka: It sounds a bit as if dogme can work well for test prep, but not necessarily being linked to a test #eltchat
AlexandraKouk 12:30 PM @Shaunwilden totally agree #eltchat
brad5patterson 12:30 PM Headed off to hear @cerirhiannon Enjoy the end of #eltchat all !
bethcagnol 12:30 PM Speaking of sts. I have to go teach now. IC the sts who helped us during the #TESOLFR conf. #ELTCHAT
rliberni 12:30 PM RT @harrisonmike: This is formative assessment isn't it folks? #eltchat yes but I thought we were on formal assessment
Shaunwilden 12:30 PM @AlexandraKouk prob not, but I think schools use exam material too much, training is imp but loads of past parers is unnecessary #eltchat
yitzha_sarwono 12:30 PM RT @brad5patterson: Haha... until the scores come back RT @Shaunwilden @AlexandraKouk @brad5patterson Ditch the exam material?... #ELTchat
teflgeek 12:30 PM @rliberni but that can be done via dogme?   #eltchat
AlexandraKouk 12:30 PM @brad5patterson  possibly have them present some material in pairs.  Listen/ Keep the space open to part needs #eltchat> great ideas!
rliberni 12:31 PM @harrisonmike  to be honest I'm not sure myself  :-) #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:31 PM @yitzha_sarwono @chrisjw133 I don't write lesson plans anymore, it's too restrictive. I do outlines/skeletons which allow space. #eltchat
nickcherkas 12:31 PM @bethcagnol @Shaunwilden telling sts about dogme can prepare them and heighten their experience, i've found #ELTchat
Shaunwilden 12:31 PM @bethcagnol At my last school we gave a brochure of what sts can expect re methods etc when they enrolled #eltchat
nickcherkas 12:32 PM @theteacherjames @yitzha_sarwono @chrisjw133 #eltchat Me too - that's what dogme is for me, a framework depending on sts' needs
AlexandraKouk 12:32 PM RT @nickcherkas: @bethcagnol @Shaunwilden telling sts about dogme can prepare them and heighten their experience, i've found #ELTchat
yitzha_sarwono 12:32 PM @rliberni @reditho well,you've been here Berni. I think you can understand the situation better ^^ #eltchat
rliberni 12:32 PM @teflgeek  I didn't say it couldn't be I just said that having the test in mind is also learner centred #eltchat
Shaunwilden 12:32 PM @nickcherkas @bethcagnol  I think this applies to all approaches and methods - informing sts is vital #eltchat
chrisjw133 12:33 PM @theteacherjames @yitzha_sarwono being  under a DOS I still have to. I try to allow students to produce as much material as pos #eltchat
rliberni 12:33 PM @yitzha_sarwono  I understand what you're saying - this is one of the reasons that Herlina is trying to change things :-) #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:33 PM @nickcherkas @yitzha_sarwono @chrisjw133 That's a good way of looking at it. #eltchat
ljp2010 12:34 PM #ELTchat  @chrisjw133  Depends which DOS
yitzha_sarwono 12:34 PM @theteacherjames that is super! Hope I get to do that too! I'm just gonna prove myself better to get to that level then :-) #Eltchat
AlexandraKouk 12:35 PM @harrisonmike should think so - yes! #dogme #eltchat
yitzha_sarwono 12:35 PM @theteacherjames @nickcherkas @chrisjw133 it sure is! thanks ^^ #eltchat
rliberni 12:35 PM RT @harrisonmike: Does portfolio type assessment tie in better/more comfortably than test-based assessment with a #dogme approach? #eltchat
esolcourses 12:35 PM RT @theteacherjames: @yitzha_sarwono See @dalecoulter's blog for some great examples. Try it now, as an experiment & blog about it! #Eltchat
rliberni 12:35 PM RT @AlexandraKouk: #ELTCHAT Perhaps we could suggest some practical dogme-like activities than can be used in an exam prep class?
harrisonmike 12:35 PM Does portfolio type assessment tie in better/more comfortably than test-based assessment with a #dogme approach? #eltchat
Shaunwilden 12:35 PM RT @AlexandraKouk: #ELTCHAT Perhaps we could suggest some practical dogme-like activities than can be used in an exam prep class?
theteacherjames 12:35 PM @yitzha_sarwono See @dalecoulter's blog for some great examples. Try it now, as an experiment & blog about it! #Eltchat
AlexandraKouk 12:35 PM #ELTCHAT Perhaps we could suggest some practical dogme-like activities than can be used in an exam prep class?
Shaunwilden 12:36 PM @esolcourses @harrisonmike Because it is a truer record of progress? #ELTchat
AlexandraKouk 12:36 PM RT @ljp2010: #ELTchat Dunno if it's dogme.  I like the sts to make exam style tasks on subjects they're interested in. > great idea!!!
esolcourses 12:36 PM RT @harrisonmike: Does portfolio type assessment tie in better than test-based assessment with a #dogme approach? #eltchat ] IME, yes
ljp2010 12:36 PM #ELTchat @AlexandraKouk  Dunno if it's dogme.  I like the sts to make exam style tasks on subjects they're interested in.
teflgeek 12:36 PM @rliberni sorry from original tweet I thought you meant the teaching should be all about the exam.  #eltchat
yitzha_sarwono 12:37 PM RT @AlexandraKouk: #ELTCHAT Perhaps we could suggest some practical dogme-like activities than can be used in an exam prep class?
Shaunwilden 12:37 PM RT @englishraven: #eltchat @AlexandraKouk 'The best approach to exam prep is an unplugged one' > http://t.co/gBpFsdOX :)
analuisalozano 12:37 PM RT @esolcourses: RT @harrisonmike: Does portfolio type assessment tie in better than test-based assessment with a #dogme approach? #eltchat
englishraven 12:37 PM #eltchat @AlexandraKouk 'The best approach to exam prep is an unplugged one' > http://t.co/gBpFsdOX :)
chrisjw133 12:37 PM @harrisonmike Are there any formal Portfolio based assessments in the EFL world? I never thought about it before #eltchat
harrisonmike 12:38 PM @rliberni @AlexandraKouk Lightning talks - sts talk for 1 min abt what they (dont)like abt their room,home,town etc #eltchat (ref TUnplgged)
yitzha_sarwono 12:38 PM RT @englishraven: #eltchat @AlexandraKouk 'The best approach to exam prep is an unplugged one' > http://t.co/gBpFsdOX :)
esolcourses 12:38 PM @Shaunwilden @harrisonmike IME yes, & I also think there is more scope in there for personalising assessment #ELTchat
EveWeb 12:38 PM LIVE NOW: Ceri Jones: Getting the reading habit http://t.co/dt1K4Zs2 #ELTChat #ELLChat #webheads #avealmec
AlexandraKouk 12:38 PM RT @englishraven: #eltchat @AlexandraKouk 'The best approach to exam prep is an unplugged one' > http://t.co/BZFcmFIh :)
theteacherjames 12:38 PM RT @englishraven: #eltchat @AlexandraKouk 'The best approach to exam prep is an unplugged one' > http://t.co/gBpFsdOX :)
chrisjw133 12:38 PM @AlexandraKouk @ljp2010 One that I've been thinking about it getting students to make exam style questions based on a text. #eltchat
barbsaka 12:38 PM RT @AlexandraKouk: #ELTCHAT Perhaps we could suggest some practical dogme-like activities than can be used in an exam prep class?
harrisonmike 12:39 PM @chrisjw133 @cecielt's school in Brazil does it. Think it would be institutional rather than global if it does exist #eltchat #portfolio
AlexandraKouk 12:39 PM RT @chrisjw133: 1 that ive bn thinking abt itgetting students 2 make exam style questions based on a text.#eltchat >gr8! keep on that track!
Shaunwilden 12:39 PM @esolcourses @harrisonmike Which I can see but how does marry with the idea of needing sth 'formal' for career etc? #ELTchat
PatrickAndrews 12:39 PM @chrisjw133 @AlexandraKouk @ljp2010 Think that can work - have done it #ELTchat
Shaunwilden 12:40 PM RT @fionamau: #eltchat Hi. I'm late as usual.. dogme and testing, right? Formal testing or informal? technically formal
AlexandraKouk 12:40 PM RT @harrisonmike: Lightning talks- sts talk4 1 min abt wht they (dont)like abt their room,home,town etc #eltchat (ref TUnplgged)>gr8 !!!
theteacherjames 12:40 PM @harrisonmike @rliberni @AlexandraKouk Great idea - very similar to IELTS / TOEFL teaching exams. #eltchat
MagicinEdu 12:40 PM RT @Marisa_C: Reconciling dogme & an unplugged approach with situs where formal assessment key ..in student motivation. - Top topic for 1st #ELTchat :-)
fionamau 12:40 PM #eltchat Hi. I'm late as usual.. dogme and testing, right? Formal testing or informal?
yitzha_sarwono 12:40 PM @theteacherjames will surely do that. @dalecoulter watch out for storming questions from me :p #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:41 PM @fionamau Hurrah, another dogmetist joins #eltchat!
AlexandraKouk 12:41 PM RT @teflgeek: @harrisonmike: @rliberni @AlexandraKouk #eltchat Just a minute Speaking Relay Race ? http://t.co/1Lfzqoaq > definitely!
harrisonmike 12:41 PM @Shaunwilden @esolcourses A portfolio = educational record no? How more formal (in principle) does it need to get?? #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:41 PM RT @harrisonmike: @chrisjw133 @cecielt's school in Brazil does it. Think it would be institutional rather than global if it does exist #eltchat #portfolio
teflgeek 12:41 PM @harrisonmike: @rliberni @AlexandraKouk #eltchat Just a minute Speaking Relay Race ? http://t.co/z8s4GoWq
harrisonmike 12:42 PM @teflgeek Just A Minute speaking good for developing synonym knowledge too #eltchat #radio4
Shaunwilden 12:42 PM @harrisonmike @esolcourses Yes no argument from me here but then if they are not officially recognised..... #eltchat
MagicinEdu 12:42 PM RT @englishraven: #eltchat @AlexandraKouk 'The best approach to exam prep is an unplugged one' > http://t.co/gBpFsdOX :)
rliberni 12:42 PM @teflgeek  no I meant that it is learner centred for those who's career depend in it - it has to be a balance esp at higher levels #eltchat
teflgeek 12:42 PM RT @harrisonmike: @Shaunwilden @esolcourses How more formal (in principle) does it need to get?? #eltchat - Govt Approval?
teflgeek 12:43 PM @barbsaka http://t.co/z8s4GoWq  #eltchat
rliberni 12:43 PM @harrisonmike @teflgeek  1 minutes tyalks on random topics even more so!! #eltchat
nickcherkas 12:43 PM @harrisonmike @teflgeek #ELTchat and use of discourse markers and fillers
AlexandraKouk 12:43 PM @barbsaka  bit.ly/dPsJz6  #eltchat
harrisonmike 12:43 PM @Shaunwilden @esolcourses We rthe change that needs 2happen then. Who's up 4writing something that would become an int portfolio?! #eltchat
barbsaka 12:43 PM @harrisonmike @teflgeek link for the just a minute activities? #eltchat
rliberni 12:43 PM @harrisonmike @teflgeek  Lightning tasks are gr8 IELTS practice I use them a lot! #eltchat
PatrickAndrews 12:43 PM @harrisonmike @Shaunwilden @esolcourses portfolios are great but unfortunately some exams have more influence #ELTchat
Shaunwilden 12:43 PM @esolcourses @harrisonmike Links to some when you have time :-)  #eltchat
AlexandraKouk 12:44 PM RT @nickcherkas: @harrisonmike @teflgeek #ELTchat and use of discourse markers and fillers > elaborate please? (very interesting idea!)
fionamau 12:44 PM RT @theteacherjames: @fionamau Hurrah, another dogmetist joins #eltchat! > :) but it'll take me 15mins to catch up!
dalecoulter 12:44 PM want 2 open an online space where students can upload writing, I have access to comment and give feedback,any ideas? #writing #elt #eltchat
barbsaka 12:44 PM @AlexandraKouk Thanks! #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:45 PM @fionamau Don't worry, just get stuck in! #eltchat
rliberni 12:45 PM I love lateral thinking puzzles for question practice,  speculation, conditionals etc.. great fun always a hit! #eltchat
ljp2010 12:45 PM #ELTchat @dalecoulter  Can voicethread be used for this?  Upload the media file, start a conversation?
harrisonmike 12:45 PM Jusat a minute rules: http://t.co/iLsu3dj3 #eltchat
Wiktor_K 12:45 PM http://t.co/NCF6zrSC - This pdf from eaquals, heavily cefr-based, has some assessment scenarios. Can-do is OK with dogme, right? #eltchat
barbsaka 12:46 PM RT @Shaunwilden: @esolcourses @teflgeek @harrisonmike Ta maybe i am being dumb but isnt that still prescribing what needs to be taught?  #eltchat
Shaunwilden 12:46 PM @esolcourses @teflgeek @harrisonmike Ta maybe i am being dumb but isnt that still prescribing what needs to be taught?  #eltchat
AlexandraKouk 12:46 PM RT @rliberni: I luv lateral thinking puzzles 4 question practice, speculation, conditionals etc.. gr8 fun always a hit! #eltchat > tru!
dalecoulter 12:47 PM @theteacherjames @AnthonyGaughan @harrisonmike @LukeMeddings @thornburyscott there's another dogme eltchat??
fionamau 12:47 PM @Wiktor_K Can-do is OK with dogme, right? #eltchat > Yes, as a check list - when u've done something, u cross it off - but not as overt aims
AlexandraKouk 12:47 PM RT @ljp2010: #ELTchat @dalecoulter  Can voicethread be used for this?  Upload the media file, start a conversation? > another great idea!!!
harrisonmike 12:47 PM @dalecoulter You could share things on google docs #eltchat
yitzha_sarwono 12:47 PM RT @rliberni: I love lateral thinking puzzles for question practice,  speculation, conditionals etc.. great fun always a hit! #eltchat
eyespeakbrasil 12:47 PM Hey all better late than never. #eltchat
esolcourses 12:48 PM @Shaunwilden @teflgeek @harrisonmike depends how you do it - again, not something you can debate properly in 140chrs, I think #eltchat
AlexandraKouk 12:48 PM RT @teflgeek: @dalecoulter  or check out primary pad: http://t.co/r4Ne4qp1 #eltchat
Shaunwilden 12:48 PM RT @fionamau: #eltchat If u teach dogme, u usually cover the language 'required' for formal exams, and then some. U just need practice of the exam format
fionamau 12:48 PM #eltchat If u teach dogme, u usually cover the language 'required' for formal exams, and then some. U just need practice of the exam format
Wiktor_K 12:48 PM @fionamau Yes, that was my idea - I think even behind the most free-style dogme lesson there has to be a lot of implicit expertise #ELTchat
teflgeek 12:48 PM @dalecoulter  or check out primary pad: http://t.co/r4Ne4qp1 #eltchat
AlexandraKouk 12:48 PM RT @Shaunwilden: @esolcourses @teflgeek @harrisonmike Ta mayB i'm being dumb but isnt that still prescribing wht needs 2 B taught? #eltchat
Shaunwilden 12:48 PM @fionamau So how do you know when you have progressed a level?  #eltchat
teflgeek 12:49 PM @Shaunwilden which brings us back to the test again.  make the test about ability, not knowledge and it doesn't matter!  #eltchat
fionamau 12:49 PM @Shaunwilden #eltchat For students, u can pin a copy of the target lang fr the level on the wall, & cross it off as u go. If necessary, u...
rliberni 12:50 PM RT @barbsaka: Moving into the final 10 minutes of #eltchat Start thinking about volunteering to do our summary. Please :)
Shaunwilden 12:50 PM @fionamau Thanks, that makes sense :-)  #eltchat
barbsaka 12:50 PM Moving into the final 10 minutes of #eltchat Start thinking about volunteering to do our summary. Please :)
fionamau 12:50 PM @Shaunwilden #eltchat ... add a 'trad' session near the exam to cover anything missing, but in my experience it hasn't been necessary.
yitzha_sarwono 12:50 PM RT @fionamau: @Shaunwilden #eltchat For students, u can pin a copy of the target lang fr the level on the wall, & cross it off as u go. If necessary, u...
rliberni 12:50 PM Did a course last week - agricultural/horticultural/economy stds used lots of podcasts, Youtube, radio, discussion and farm visits #eltchat
Shaunwilden 12:50 PM Ten minutes left  #eltchat  any more practical tips or ideas?
AlexandraKouk 12:50 PM RT @fionamau: @Shaunwilden #eltchat 4 students, u cn pin a copy of the target lang fr the level on the wall… (cont) http://t.co/yAxAvWpF
fionamau 12:51 PM @Shaunwilden #eltchat In fact, w/ teens, once u've got em motivated, u can get them 'to the level' in half the normal time. Honest. Done it.
yitzha_sarwono 12:51 PM RT @barbsaka: Moving into the final 10 minutes of #eltchat Start thinking about volunteering to do our summary. Please :)
esolcourses 12:51 PM RT @fionamau: @Shaunwilden #eltchat For students, u can pin a copy of the target lang fr the level on the wall, & cross it off as u go.
Shaunwilden 12:52 PM @Marisa_C Haven't you got feedback to go give :-)  #eltchat
Shaunwilden 12:52 PM @fionamau It wouldn't surprise me, the idea of crossing it off on the wall is  a really good one :-)  #eltchat
Marisa_C 12:52 PM RT @fionamau: #eltchat If u teach dogme, u usually cover the language 'required' for formal exams, and then so… (cont) http://t.co/C0k3I4iZ
theteacherjames 12:52 PM RT @fionamau: #eltchat If u teach dogme, u usually cover the language 'required' for formal exams, and then some. U just need practice of the exam format
rliberni 12:52 PM @Shaunwilden  go out if you can, esp in English spking countries - courts, talks, there sooo much stuff around of value #eltchat
Shaunwilden 12:53 PM @Wiktor_K Good point, I was just wondering how revision fitted in  #eltchat
teflgeek 12:53 PM @Marisa_C  so that's how it's done!  #eltchat
OzGrrl09 12:53 PM RT @Shaunwilden: 'Teaching unplugged' has a section about dogme and exam classes, page 94 and 95 if you  have the book #ELTchat
Marisa_C 12:53 PM @Shaunwilden in a few minutes - all writing own feedback for each other now - so tutor can tweet :-)  #eltchat
Wiktor_K 12:53 PM Another problem with dogme's relation to testing is revision - with a lesson which is supposed to be "generated" with learners? #eltchat
esolcourses 12:53 PM RT @rliberni @Shaunwilden go out if you can, esp in English spking countries - courts, talks, there sooo much stuff around of value #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:54 PM Towards the end of a course, ask sts to go back & improve earlier written work. Discuss the changes they have made. #eltchat
fionamau 12:54 PM @Wiktor_K Dogme's all about expertise, in a sense, & fr 'newbies' it's abt daring 2 say 'we'll look at it together 2moro' & learnin #eltchat
teflgeek 12:54 PM @Shaunwilden @Wiktor_K  I usually ask them what they want to revise?  Set the goal, not the content.   #eltchat
AlexandraKouk 12:55 PM #ELTCHAT using short talks, having a list of objectives on the wall & write things off, voicethread & google docs, podcasts - anything else?
ljp2010 12:55 PM #ELTchat Gotta go film a Beg Kids' play :)  Thx everyone.  Gr8 chat.
esolcourses 12:55 PM @Wiktor_K learners can revise between lessons. I give them links & upload follow-on activities to my website to rwork on #ELTChat
esolcourses 12:56 PM RT @theteacherjames Towards the end of a course, ask sts to go back & improve earlier written work. Discuss changes they have made. #eltchat
yitzha_sarwono 12:56 PM RT @theteacherjames: Towards the end of a course, ask sts to go back & improve earlier written work. Discuss the changes they have made. #eltchat
AlexandraKouk 12:56 PM RT @teflgeek: @Shaunwilden @Wiktor_K  I usually ask them what they want to revise?  Set the goal, not the content.   #eltchat
yitzha_sarwono 12:56 PM RT @fionamau: @Wiktor_K Dogme's all about expertise, in a sense, & fr 'newbies' it's abt daring 2 say 'we'll look at it together 2moro' & learnin #eltchat
Shaunwilden 12:57 PM RT @fionamau: @Shaunwilden the idea of crossing it off on the wall > It's motivating too, cuz they can see progress & have a reference point 2 #eltchat
Marisa_C 12:57 PM @teflgeek from day one - autonomy & self reflection should begin early  #eltchat
Shaunwilden 12:57 PM @harrisonmike Bye Mike thanks for joining  #eltchat
fionamau 12:57 PM @Shaunwilden the idea of crossing it off on the wall > It's motivating too, cuz they can see progress & have a reference point 2 #eltchat
harrisonmike 12:57 PM Byeeee #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:57 PM @Wiktor_K Vocab revision can absolutely be integrated into a dogme class. We have the space to include it. #eltchat
teflgeek 12:58 PM @Marisa_C with exam classes they don't always know what they don't know...  but I take the point!   #eltchat
theteacherjames 12:58 PM @teflgeek @Shaunwilden @Wiktor_K I keep a record of the vocab to revise, bring to next class, remind them & practice.  #eltchat
rliberni 12:58 PM Some  photos of my 'unplugged' stuff :-) http://t.co/tMV8JZM4 #eltchat
Shaunwilden 12:58 PM Summary anyone? #eltchat
Wiktor_K 12:58 PM @teflgeek @Shaunwilden @esolcourses so,with revision at home &learner-directed,what's teacher's role here &does dogme account4it? #ELTchat
AlexandraKouk 12:58 PM RT @Marisa_C: @teflgeek from day one - autonomy & self reflection should begin early  #eltchat
teflgeek 12:59 PM @Wiktor_K  being the reference of last resort?  #eltchat
OztrkOzge 12:59 PM #ELTCHAT hi dear all, i am late but want to read your tweets about testing and see if i can catch up...
English_safari 12:59 PM “@dalecoulter: want 2 open an online space where students can upload writing, I have access to ..#eltchat” > Moodle will let you do all that
yitzha_sarwono 12:59 PM RT @rliberni: Some  photos of my 'unplugged' stuff :-) http://t.co/tMV8JZM4 #eltchat
barbsaka 12:59 PM RT @Shaunwilden: I really like the revision ideas that people have suggested #eltchat
barbsaka 12:59 PM So, who's interested in writing the summary for this chat? #eltchat
Shaunwilden 12:59 PM I really like the revision ideas that people have suggested #eltchat
phil2wade 1:00 PM @fionamau @Shaunwilden #ELTCHAT Online blogs are good for journals.
AlexandraKouk 1:00 PM RT @English_safari: “@dalecoulter: wnt 2 open an online space whr students cn upload ..#eltchat >Moodle will let U do all that > also wikis?
Shaunwilden 1:00 PM RT @barbsaka: So, who's interested in writing the summary for this chat? #eltchat
Shaunwilden 1:00 PM @fionamau We did now thanks :-) #eltchat
fionamau 1:00 PM RT @Shaunwilden: Ten minutes left  #eltchat  more practical tips or ideas? > Did u mention writing journals? Essential tools for 'diagnosis'
theteacherjames 1:01 PM RT @Shaunwilden: We really need a summary writer volunteer please #eltchat
barbsaka 1:01 PM C'mon...you know in your heart you want to volunteer! We love our summary writers :) #eltchat
Shaunwilden 1:01 PM We really need a summary writer volunteer please #eltchat
rliberni 1:01 PM Great chat everyone please volunteer for the summary  thanks to fab co-mods as ever @barbsaka  @Shaunwilden and  @Marisa_C  #eltchat
Shaunwilden 1:02 PM Tonight's #eltchat is on Using wikis in ELT - 21.00GMT
Wiktor_K 1:02 PM @teflgeek Hah, good one :) I used 2 teach callan method - even a hardcore method like this switched 2 exam papers later for FCE...#ELTchat
AlexandraKouk 1:02 PM RT @rliberni: gr8 chat everyone please volunteer 4 the summary thx 2 fab co-mods as evr @barbsaka @Shaunwilden & @Marisa_C #eltchat
theteacherjames 1:03 PM I love talking #dogme with you people! Thanks to moderators @barbsaka @Shaunwilden & @rliberni. #eltchat
esolcourses 1:03 PM @Wiktor_K I see teachers role as being facilitator, helping s's become autonomous learners. Other end of spectrum to spoon-feeding? #ELTCHAT
Marisa_C 1:03 PM RT @Shaunwilden: Tonight's #eltchat is on Using wikis in ELT - 21.00GMT
bucharesttutor 1:03 PM RT @barbsaka: C'mon...you know in your heart you want to volunteer! We love our summary writers :) #eltchat
fionamau 1:03 PM RT @phil2wade @Shaunwilden #ELTCHAT Online blogs are good 4 journals.>Yes, bt there's something + personal abt a notebook..u can graffiti it
teflgeek 1:04 PM RT @Shaunwilden: Tonight's #eltchat is on Using wikis in ELT - which I can't make!  So here's something I prep‚Ķ (cont) http://t.co/7Gw4PQco
esolcourses 1:04 PM Thanks for another great #ELTChat folks! Catch you later :-)

 

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