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How to PRESENT new grammar points: diffrnt techniques, st engagement, key elements (redirected from How-to-PRESENT-new-grammar-point)

Page history last edited by Shaun 11 years, 5 months ago

This is the transcript of #eltchat on Wednesday 8th June at 12 BST on the topic of How to present grammar

 

 

rliberni

1:58 PM

For the next hour, all my tweets will be dedicated to #ELTchat.

rliberni

1:58 PM

@du_siemens How to PRESENT new grammar points: diffrnt techniques, st engagement, key elements of effective grammar presentation #eltchat

OUPELTGlobal

1:58 PM

For the next hour, all our tweets will be dedicated to #ELTchat. Please welcome @verri144 to the stage...

irishmikeh

1:58 PM

@mubeenfk @Marisa_C re: next steps for DELTA qualified: How about specialisation (ESP, Business English, etc.) or writing? #ELTchat

Shaunwilden

1:59 PM

This topic is  How to PRESENT new grammar points: diffrnt techniques, st engagement, key elements of effective grammar presentation #eltchat

lolonagi

1:59 PM

#eltchat now.... my tweets will be for it

barbsaka

1:59 PM

Hope to see some of my new #KOTESOL friends on #ELTChat this week :-)

lolonagi

1:59 PM

RT @Shaunwilden: Ok almost time for #eltchat the moderators for this chat are me, @rliberni and @barbsaka so if you need help contact us

Shaunwilden

1:59 PM

Ok almost time for #eltchat the moderators for this chat are me, @rliberni and @barbsaka so if you need help contact us

rliberni

2:00 PM

Don't forget to add the hashtag #eltchat at the end of your tweet!

barbsaka

2:00 PM

I show that it's time for #eltchat Who's ready to chat?

hartle

2:00 PM

#eltchat Hi everyone

Marisa_C

2:00 PM

@Shaunwilden I may be able to join in 30 minutes #eltchat - only two TPs today

barbsaka

2:00 PM

OOOOOH I hear @jefflebow calling @Shaunwilden #eltchat :-)

rliberni

2:00 PM

RT @Shaunwilden: Ok almost time for #eltchat the moderators for this chat are me, @rliberni and @barbsaka so if you need help contact us

rliberni

2:01 PM

So grammar - love it or hate it? We can't ignore it! #eltchat

hartle

2:01 PM

#eltchat a bit busy but I'll contribute when I can :-)

cioccas

2:01 PM

For the next hour, all my tweets will be dedicated to #ELTchat.

barbsaka

2:01 PM

So tonight the topic is how to PRESENT new grammar #eltchat

lolonagi

2:01 PM

yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees... are u ready.... let's rock 'n roll #eltchat

ShellTerrell

2:01 PM

RT @TheConsultantsE: Keynote Video Recording: Litttle Tech for Big Results by @barsaka http://bit.ly/m24Yxm #edtech #elemchat #eltchat #ellchat #kinderchat

cherrymp

2:02 PM

@LizziePinard welcome #eltchat

dreadnought001

2:02 PM

@jefflebow how is the Skype chat similar/different to the Twitter stream? #eltchat

lolonagi

2:02 PM

@rliberni  exactly... but difficult to attract ss t #eltchat

BobK99

2:02 PM

@barbsaka Ready for #eltchat. But just in from bio-mass reduction in garden, so no idea what's the topic.

LizziePinard

2:02 PM

#eltchat im half here...

cherrymp

2:02 PM

RT @rliberni: So grammar - love it or hate it? We can't ignore it! #eltchat >true

Shaunwilden

2:02 PM

Don't forget the live stream #eltchat

barbsaka

2:03 PM

@lolonagi Why do you think they feel a jump? #eltchat

cioccas

2:03 PM

Finding the #ELTchat live stream distracting, but an interesting experiment :-)

lolonagi

2:03 PM

the problem is Ss feel the jump bet. grammar and the rest of topics in class #eltchat

dreadnought001

2:03 PM

@rliberni well, we might not be able to ignore it, but we can do a good job of hiding it :-) #eltchat

cherrymp

2:03 PM

RT @dreadnought001: @jefflebow how is the Skype chat similar/different to the Twitter stream? #eltchat yeah even i'd d same doubt

fabiancleme

2:03 PM

RT @TheConsultantsE: Keynote Video Recording: Litttle Tech for Big Results by @barsaka http://bit.ly/m24Yxm #edtech #elemchat #eltchat #ellchat #kinderchat

cioccas

2:04 PM

RT @barbsaka: @cioccas It is a bit challenging to listen and type :-) #ELTchat >YES!

lolonagi

2:04 PM

@barbsaka  coz I do feel when I move from a conversation to certain topic, did u try american headway.... #eltchat baddddddd

cherrymp

2:04 PM

@rliberni d challenge is to present it interestingly - students find it boring #eltchat

Shaunwilden

2:04 PM

RT @barbsaka: @cioccas It is a bit challenging to listen and type :-) #ELTchat Agreed

barbsaka

2:04 PM

@rliberni Tell us why grammar is wonderful and exciting! :-) #eltchat

esolcourses

2:04 PM

RT @dreadnought001: @rliberni well, we might not be able to ignore it, but we can do a good job of hiding it :-) #eltchat ] agree

teflerinha

2:04 PM

RT @lolonagi: the problem is Ss feel the jump bet. grammar & the rest of topics #eltchat tru -the key is 2 make them C the real need 4 it.

cioccas

2:04 PM

@lolonagi I find it easier to address grammar within other topics, so no jump #ELTchat

rliberni

2:04 PM

@dreadnought001 @lolonagi  why? Grammar is wonderful and exciting! #eltchat

barbsaka

2:04 PM

@cioccas It is a bit challenging to listen and type :-) #ELTchat

rliberni

2:05 PM

@barbsaka I do actually LOVE grammar I find the differences in systems between languages really fascinating #eltchat

cioccas

2:05 PM

@LizziePinard http://bit.ly/jGPF6B - Ustream link for #ELTchat

sandymillin

2:05 PM

For the next hour my tweets will be dedicated to #eltchat on presenting grammar

lolonagi

2:05 PM

@teflerinha  but still.... how can we teach grammar.... #eltchat

teflgeek

2:05 PM

#eltchat - new grammar - mostly presented through the medium of cartoon stick men and convoluted timelines

BobK99

2:05 PM

RT @rliberni: @dreadnought001 @lolonagi  why? Grammar is wonderful and exciting! #eltchat! Agreed, but how to sell that belief?

pjgallantry

2:05 PM

#eltchat so who's going to kick off?

OUPELTGlobal

2:05 PM

@rliberni  Really? wonderful and exciting? skeptic on this side #eltchat

teflgeek

2:06 PM

@Shaunwilden  #eltchat - an inductive emergent process?

cioccas

2:06 PM

@Shaunwilden @barbsaka It is a bit challenging to listen and type AND WATCH! :-) #ELTchat

rliberni

2:06 PM

I've been helping my daughter with her Greek & Latin and now she's hooked too! #eltchat

cherrymp

2:06 PM

@teflerinha yeah - bt think of the classrooms - where it's presented gen as content #eltchat

Shaunwilden

2:06 PM

RT @Shaunwilden: I love teaching grammar - well letting the sts  discover how to use grammar  #eltchat

pjgallantry

2:06 PM

#eltchat many students feel that if they understand the grammar, they have mastered the language, so just want 'grammar' lessons.

dstreack

2:06 PM

@rliberni  #eltchat Both love it and hate it - love the mechanics/logic of it (Spanish) but hate that I feel it's stifling sometimes

barbsaka

2:06 PM

Perhaps if the grammar is pulled from the lesson and focused on as mini-lesson, less of a jump? #eltchat

pjgallantry

2:07 PM

#eltchat do you feel many of the 'conventions' of teaching grammar are just hangovers from how Latin and Greek were taught?

rliberni

2:07 PM

@BobK99 I feel that it's one of those myths like maths - this stuff is yawn, yawn - I never have any problems with ss & grammar #eltchat

OUPELTGlobal

2:07 PM

Do we really TEACH grammar? I think we expose our students to it, meet their expectations and hope little damage is done.  #eltchat

lolonagi

2:07 PM

RT @barbsaka: Do you present grammar and then expand? Or, present in context and then extract? #eltchat

miladakrajewska

2:07 PM

For the next hour my tweets will be dedicated to #eltchat on presenting grammar

cioccas

2:07 PM

RT @rliberni: @barbsaka I do actually LOVE grammar I find the differences in systems between languages really fascinating #eltchat >Me too!

barbsaka

2:07 PM

Do you present grammar and then expand? Or, present in context and then extract? #eltchat

lolonagi

2:07 PM

I google when I teach old and new topics " how to teach....." #eltchat

sandymillin

2:08 PM

@rliberni wasn't really a big fan of grammar at school til German teacher made me love it. building blocks that help u do everythng #eltchat

Shaunwilden

2:08 PM

@pjgallantry What do you mean by conventions?   #eltchat

patjack67

2:08 PM

#eltchat Should grammar be taught in nuggets AND in context (of fries?)

Shaunwilden

2:08 PM

RT @teflgeek: @Shaunwilden  #eltchat  sort of

lolonagi

2:08 PM

@barbsaka   present context and then extract.... #eltchat

cioccas

2:08 PM

@barbsaka ... present in context and then extract #eltchat

cherrymp

2:09 PM

multitasking #eltchat

miladakrajewska

2:09 PM

RT @barbsaka: Do you present grammar and then expand?Or, present in context and then extract? #eltchat > The latter gives memorable context.

lolonagi

2:09 PM

@barbsaka  may be that's part of the issue #eltchat....

Shaunwilden

2:09 PM

@patjack67 Arhh grammar mcnuggets  #eltchat

FarnhamCastle

2:09 PM

@rliberni Lang is for communication, grmr helps understanding, but not essential. Message more important #eltchat

barbsaka

2:09 PM

Most seem to present in context and then pull out. Context reinforces meaning, so that's good :-) #eltchat

esolcourses

2:09 PM

@rliberni @BobK99  do you think maybe teachers perceptions of grammar stem from how they were taught it at school? not a fan myself #ELTChat

rliberni

2:09 PM

@pjgallantry to an extent yes as they were a base for all language learning - since the 70s though things have changed a lot #eltchat

LizziePinard

2:09 PM

#eltchat ...anyone else having trouble loading the #eltchat suggestions for weds topic page?

rliberni

2:10 PM

@esolcourses it's hardly taught at school today - I really loved it - like jigsaw puzzles & how other langs were put together #eltchat

teflerinha

2:10 PM

RT @hartle: #eltchat Grammar is gr8t & w/out it we cnt say anything. its linguistic cement & students cn learn wht they need- agreed

dreadnought001

2:10 PM

how explicit do you make grammar in class with your students? Do you introduce it with the terminology etc? #eltchat

esolcourses

2:10 PM

RT @barbsaka: Do you present grammar and then expand? Or, present in context and then extract? #eltchat ] I generally hide it in the mix...

hartle

2:10 PM

#eltchat Grammar is gr8t and without it we can't say anything. It is linguistic cement and students can learn what they need

lolonagi

2:10 PM

sometimes.... I piety Ss when I teach them grammar :S #eltchat

barbsaka

2:10 PM

Personally, I love me my grammar McNuggets. My students do, too :-) #eltchat

brad5patterson

2:10 PM

When Sandy met Lizzie: my PLN interview with @LizziePinard http://wp.me/p18yiK-aO #eltchat #elt via @sandymillin

snapanda

2:10 PM

When Sandy met Lizzie: my PLN interview with @LizziePinard http://wp.me/p18yiK-aO #eltchat #elt via @sandymillin

sandymillin

2:11 PM

RT @barbsaka: Do you present grammar and then expand? Or, present in context and then extract? #eltchat <depends on grammar/students

barbsaka

2:11 PM

@EHerrod Can you expand?  #eltchat

rliberni

2:11 PM

@FarnhamCastle i only agree to a point - grammar is a toolbox to help you create many more communications #eltchat

EHerrod

2:11 PM

Hello everyone. I have quote ringing in my ears from IH London CELTA "There's no such thing as a grammar lesson" :) #eltchat

pjgallantry

2:11 PM

#eltchat quite a few textbooks can't seem to make up their mind whether they're trying to do inductive or deductive grammar

hartle

2:11 PM

#eltchat by linguistic cement i mean it holds it all together, lexis, discourse markers, pron. intonation everything.

sandymillin

2:11 PM

RT @rliberni: @barbsaka I do actually LOVE grammar I find the differences in systems between languages really fascinating #eltchat

OUPELTGlobal

2:12 PM

RT @EHerrod: I have quote ringing in my ears from IH London CELTA "There's no such thing as a grammar lesson" :) #eltchat

hartle

2:12 PM

#eltchat there are as many approaches to teaching it as there are learners. you can adapt to their styles

rliberni

2:12 PM

OK after last week & this - beginning to feel like the grumpy OLD ELT person ! #eltchat

LizziePinard

2:12 PM

RT @sandymillin: RT @barbsaka: Do you present grammar and then expand? Or, present in context and then extract? #eltchat <depends on grammar/students

LizziePinard

2:12 PM

RT @rliberni: @FarnhamCastle i only agree to a point - grammar is a toolbox to help you create many more communications #eltchat

hartle

2:12 PM

@EHerrod #eltchat and there's no such thing as language without it

teflerinha

2:12 PM

#eltchat #esol #elt Was asked a q this am in webinar abt use of subtitles when listening. Anyone know any research on this? Pls retweet

FarnhamCastle

2:13 PM

@rliberni #eltchat I only mean that if the message is understood, grammar secondary

LizziePinard

2:13 PM

RT @Thamesville: Grammar and Vocabulary can often be greatly improved through reading. #ELTchat

lolonagi

2:13 PM

RT @Thamesville: Grammar and Vocabulary can often be greatly improved through reading. #ELTchat

barbsaka

2:13 PM

If your students LOVE your "grammar" lessons, please share your approach with us. What do you do to present new grammar? #eltchat

teflgeek

2:13 PM

Aren't most grammar presentations based around what we're expected to cover either from the book or the syllabus? #eltchat

sandymillin

2:13 PM

RT @hartle: #eltchat Grammar is gr8t and without it we can't say anything. It is linguistic cement and students can learn what they need

Thamesville

2:13 PM

Grammar and Vocabulary can often be greatly improved through reading. #ELTchat

pjgallantry

2:13 PM

#eltchat I think you should try and extract grammar rather than present it, but it does also depend on ss requirements

dreadnought001

2:13 PM

@EHerrod I kind of agree, I tend to think of lessons in terms of skills which have elements of grammar/vocab/pron within it. #eltchat

hartle

2:13 PM

#eltchat I like the idea of emergent language. Grammar stds need to say or write or understand what they need to

barbsaka

2:13 PM

I see two kinds of grammar here. The "latin" roots and tools (the one we label) and the structure underlying everything we say #eltchat

europeaantje

2:13 PM

could only just reach the button to RT this: "What a planker!" http://bit.ly/daFXWQ by @TeresaBestwick #eltchat #tesol

Shaunwilden

2:14 PM

I think L1 also influences sts perceptions of how grammar should be learnt  #eltchat

barbsaka

2:14 PM

RT @lolonagi: @barbsaka  when I prepare well for grammar, they love it... songs, ppts, competitions, games #eltchat

EHerrod

2:14 PM

RT @barbsaka: Can you expand?  -of course. Focus was on Ss noticing language patterns, not "today I'm going to teach the pres perf" #eltchat

lolonagi

2:14 PM

@barbsaka  when I prepare well for grammar, they love it... songs, ppts, competitions, games #eltchat

marekandrews

2:14 PM

developing ss interest in grammar is developing ss lang awareness, good to get ss to NOTICE relationships btw words. #eltchat

hartle

2:14 PM

RT @teflgeek: Aren't most grammar presentations based around what we're expected ... #eltchat not entirely. Learners important too

rliberni

2:14 PM

@pjgallantry  where a student's own grammatical system is very different this can be difficult I think it's ok to present/teach it #eltchat

dstreack

2:14 PM

@rliberni I agree - there is logic to the process - those left-brnd get it easily, it's the right-brnrs that need "creative" tchng #eltchat

Shaunwilden

2:14 PM

@cherrymp You came in we heard you #eltchat

hale27storm

2:14 PM

#ELTchat Grammar is HUGE at my school-taught in isolation. I teach in context to writing.

sandymillin

2:14 PM

RT @EHerrod: Hello everyone. I have quote ringing in my ears from IH London CELTA "There's no such thing as a grammar lesson" :) #eltchat

Shaunwilden

2:14 PM

RT @teflgeek: Aren't most grammar presentations based around what we're expected to cover either from the book or the syllabus? #eltchat

cherrymp

2:14 PM

guess i'd stay here #eltchat - not being able to be to be at both places

LizziePinard

2:14 PM

RT @teflgeek: Aren't most grammar presentations based around what we're expected to cover either from the book or the syllabus? #eltchat

sandymillin

2:14 PM

@dreadnought001 depends on SS - some appreciate explicit grammar teaching, others don't #eltchat

cioccas

2:14 PM

RT @Shaunwilden: Last chance to add a topic for this weeks #eltchat http://bit.ly/iAGYFw

LizziePinard

2:15 PM

RT @marekandrews: developing ss interest in grammar is developing ss lang awareness, good to get ss to NOTICE relationships btw words. #eltchat

teflerinha

2:15 PM

#eltchat couple of people mentioned 'noticing' think this is key

OUPELTGlobal

2:15 PM

A big problem for me is sts think learning the grammar is learning the language and don't try to use it to communicate #eltchat

sandymillin

2:15 PM

RT @marekandrews: developing ss interest in grammar is developing ss lang awareness, good to get ss to NOTICE relationships btw words. #eltchat

rliberni

2:15 PM

So how do we deal with it in the classroom? #eltchat

esolcourses

2:15 PM

@rliberni I was the opposite... loved language learning, but found grammar a bit ploddy & picked up rules from exposure to lang. #ELTCHAT

barbsaka

2:15 PM

@EHerrod Seems to me that's still teaching grammar, just not calling it by that name :) #eltchat

rliberni

2:15 PM

@BobK99 I agree I think it is fundamental to language #eltchat

patjack67

2:15 PM

#eltchat Show YLs how grammar 'tools'/goujons help to build sentences, always start in context and bring it back to fluent personal use.

cioccas

2:15 PM

RT @Shaunwilden: I think L1 also influences sts perceptions of how grammar should be learnt  #eltchat < Agree!

pjgallantry

2:15 PM

#eltchat a lot of what we think of as inductive grammar is in fact pattern recognition

hartle

2:15 PM

RT @barbsaka: RT @lolonagi: @barbsaka  when I prepare well for grammar, they love it... songs, ppts, competitions, games #eltchat

lolonagi

2:16 PM

so what do u use when u prepare for a grammar lesson... what's your tool kit #eltchat

OUPELTGlobal

2:16 PM

@rliberni I try to meet my sts expectations and go from there, inductive or deductively  #eltchat

LizziePinard

2:16 PM

RT @sandymillin: RT @Shaunwilden: I think L1 also influences sts perceptions of how grammar should be learnt  #eltchat <definitely + previous experiences

rliberni

2:16 PM

@esolcourses I think a true understanding of grammar only comes after you are reasonably competent (like musical notation) #eltchat

EHerrod

2:16 PM

@barbsaka grammar still is taught but it's not a 'grammar lesson' as such. Grammar emerged from the TBL framework we worked with #eltchat

harrisonmike

2:16 PM

A whole bunch of problems arise in teaching English due to the imposition of Latin based grammar rules on it. #eltchat

esolcourses

2:16 PM

RT @OUPELTGlobal A big prob. for me is sts think learning the grammar is learning the language & don't try to use it to communicate #eltchat

cherrymp

2:16 PM

RT @OUPELTGlobal: A big problem for me is sts think learning the grammar is learning the language >agree #eltchat

sandymillin

2:16 PM

RT @Shaunwilden: I think L1 also influences sts perceptions of how grammar should be learnt  #eltchat <definitely + previous experiences

Shaunwilden

2:16 PM

@barbsaka @EHerrod  haha , this is very true #eltchat

hartle

2:16 PM

RT @pjgallantry: #eltchat a lot of what we think ....recognition and production are also  2 different matters

dstreack

2:17 PM

@barbsaka I have all kinds of online sites w/ exercises for practice - sometimes conjugating verbs, sometimes using words in lang #eltchat

hartle

2:17 PM

#eltchat also depends on level. approaches change at higher levels

cherrymp

2:17 PM

listening to the livestream too #eltchat

Shaunwilden

2:17 PM

RT @teflerinha: #eltchat couple of people mentioned 'noticing' think this is key - noticing and then taking control of lang  so they 'own'

marekandrews

2:17 PM

RT @teflerinha #eltchat couple of people mentioned 'noticing' think this is key > +encourage ss to explore how language works

barbsaka

2:17 PM

Ideas to volunteer? RT @lolonagi: so what do u use when u prepare for a grammar lesson... what's your tool kit #eltchat

pjgallantry

2:17 PM

#eltchat in fact, I find students cabn be quite good at 'spotting' the pattern, esp in isolated examples, but find it difficult to produce

cherrymp

2:17 PM

@rliberni that's a good pt - frm own exp i can tell u that #eltchat

dstreack

2:17 PM

@rliberni So which way do you teach - top down or bottom up? #eltchat

harrisonmike

2:17 PM

Don't they? #eltchat (to qualify last tweet as a Q not a fact)

cherrymp

2:17 PM

#jalt 2010 plenaries http://tinyurl.com/5wubumc #eltchat #elt #esl #efl #tefl #tesl

mubeenfk

2:17 PM

RT @irishmikeh: @mubeenfk @Marisa_C re: next steps for DELTA qualified: How about specialisation (ESP, Business English, etc.) or writing? #ELTchat

marekandrews

2:18 PM

e.g. get ss to explore diff btw are you coming? + you are coming, aren't you? #eltchat

cherrymp

2:18 PM

how much of grammar the students need is sth that the teacher has to decide #eltchat

miladakrajewska

2:18 PM

RT @lolonagi: so what's your tool kit #eltchat > a good fun story 2 let sts experience grammar in context

rliberni

2:18 PM

RT @hartle: RT @harrisonmike: @lolonagi I use the sts wherever and whenever I can #eltchat me too ;-)

barbsaka

2:18 PM

@dstreack Please feel free to share site links, either during or after the chat, but with this hashtag, so we can add resources #eltchat

hartle

2:18 PM

RT @harrisonmike: @lolonagi I use the sts wherever and whenever I can #eltchat me too ;-)

teflerinha

2:18 PM

@lolnagi #eltchat I lk Thornbury & Slade's instruction- exposure-practice triangle (any order) as the ingredients.

rliberni

2:18 PM

@dstreack  I tend to have a grammatical approach but start with a context/function or notion that will illustrate and practise this #eltchat

BobK99

2:18 PM

RT @teflerinha: #eltchat couple of people mentioned 'noticing' think this is key! Yup - 'Here's the lang, where's the pattern?'

harrisonmike

2:18 PM

@lolonagi I use the sts wherever and whenever I can #eltchat

cherrymp

2:18 PM

@barbsaka grammar has to be immediate and relevant to the student's context #eltchat

hartle

2:18 PM

RT @Shaunwilden: RT @teflerinha: #eltchat couple of people mentioned 'noticing' think this is key - noticing and then taking control of lang  so they 'own'

OUPELTGlobal

2:18 PM

@lolonagi Grammar can be presented in a variety of ways, an outright exercise, a series of examples, within a dialogue or text #eltchat

chucksandy

2:18 PM

RT @teflerinha: #eltchat #esol #elt Was asked a q this am in webinar abt use of subtitles when listening. Anyone know any research on this? Pls retweet

barbsaka

2:19 PM

@dstreack thanks! #eltchat

lolonagi

2:19 PM

http://bit.ly/1dUS4T a good website for resources #eltchat

sandymillin

2:19 PM

@Shaunwilden what's the link for the livestream again? #eltchat

Shaunwilden

2:19 PM

@esolcourses Agreed Sue, grammar is incidental :-) #eltchat

rliberni

2:19 PM

RT @sandymillin: 2 ideas for teaching articles from my blog 1. http://wp.me/p18yiK-5K (inspired by @cerirhiannon)  2. http://wp.me/p18yiK-ay #eltchat

dstreack

2:19 PM

Mine will be for Spanish - www.studyspanish.com #eltchat

rliberni

2:19 PM

@esolcourses I'm wondering if the esol/efl training is also at play here? My efl training was v grammar based #eltchat

sandymillin

2:19 PM

2 ideas for teaching articles from my blog 1. http://wp.me/p18yiK-5K (inspired by @cerirhiannon)  2. http://wp.me/p18yiK-ay #eltchat

pjgallantry

2:19 PM

#eltchat mentioned it here about passive grammar comprehension http://t.co/mUWTFgU

cherrymp

2:19 PM

@miladakrajewska yeah grammar with a context #eltchat

cioccas

2:19 PM

@Shaunwilden @teflerinha Agree noticing is key, but since Ss notice at different times, how best to help in a class? #ELTchat

esolcourses

2:19 PM

I think if you put too much emphasis on grammar it can hinder fluency - s's worry about not getting it right & may hold back #ELTChat

OUPELTGlobal

2:19 PM

My favourite is eliciting smthg form the sts that leads them to use the grammar - e.g last holiday for past  #eltchat

teflerinha

2:19 PM

RT @pjgallantry: #eltchat  Agreed- that's what the presentation, or clarification is for.

mubeenfk

2:19 PM

@irishmikeh @marisa_c #ELTchat or even dealing with special needs (autism, dyslexia and so on..)???

dreadnought001

2:20 PM

important to discuss with Sts the function/role of grammar/why we learn it, why we won't only study grammar in class #eltchat

dstreack

2:20 PM

I'll just keep adding:  www.conjuguemos.com #eltchat

Shaunwilden

2:20 PM

@rliberni We can speak without grammar ,cant we? #eltchat

rliberni

2:20 PM

@Shaunwilden  for me though grammar is fundamental #eltchat

barbsaka

2:20 PM

link for the livestream http://bit.ly/iM4ykV #eltchat

LizziePinard

2:20 PM

RT @sandymillin: 2 ideas for teaching articles from my blog 1. http://wp.me/p18yiK-5K (inspired by @cerirhiannon)  2. http://wp.me/p18yiK-ay #eltchat

hartle

2:20 PM

#eltchat I sometimes give learners pre class reading to help them process it bfr class and experiment in class

cherrymp

2:20 PM

@esolcourses yeah - esp true with fl learners #eltchat - accuracy at the cost of fluency

chucksandy

2:20 PM

RT @teflerinha:  I lk Thornbury & Slades instruction- exposure-practice triangle (any order) as the ingredients.  < me too  #eltchat

harrisonmike

2:21 PM

@Shaunwilden @rliberni There's a lack of nuance tho. Communication doesn't need grammar, intricate meaning does. #eltchat

barbsaka

2:21 PM

With children, I think it's important to learn the language as chunks first, orally, before focusing on form #eltchat

EHerrod

2:21 PM

RT @Shaunwilden: @rliberni We can speak without grammar ,cant we? #eltchat => hallelujah :)

lolonagi

2:21 PM

@Shaunwilden  hummmm and a question natives do not use grammar, right #eltchat

LizziePinard

2:21 PM

RT @dreadnought001: important to discuss with Sts the function/role of grammar/why we learn it, why we won't only study grammar in class #eltchat

rliberni

2:21 PM

@harrisonmike (I'm ppp trained - there I've said it! It's like coming out! )But yes I elicit where possible #eltchat

OUPELTGlobal

2:21 PM

@rliberni can you expand on that? #eltchat

jefflebow

2:21 PM

#ELTChat - Live stream at http://eflbridges.net/eltchat

JoHart

2:21 PM

Other TZa Post http://bit.ly/mpbru5 o'view & rec link Edublogs webinar - "e-learning jargon" #edtech #elearning #ELTchat #vanmeter

dstreack

2:22 PM

The thing about teaching grammar is that in FL, college prof tests are 90% grammar - I've done the hw w/ them #eltchat

OUPELTGlobal

2:22 PM

RT @rliberni: You can be PPP trained without liking grammar, can't you? #eltchat

EHerrod

2:22 PM

@rliberni LOL! That was a big step, well done ;) #eltchat

LizziePinard

2:22 PM

RT @barbsaka: With children, I think it's important to learn the language as chunks first, orally, before focusing on form #eltchat

breathyvowel

2:22 PM

As a learner I love that grammar is encountered everywhere, you can use it that day. Vocab/functions not so much I find. #eltchat

rliberni

2:22 PM

@harrisonmike  agreed I guess my students all need complexity and a lot of accuracy #eltchat

chucksandy

2:22 PM

for me grammar needs rise up out of tasks that have an outcome. What's the point of grammar learning w/out real need for use?  #eltchat

sandymillin

2:22 PM

RT @barbsaka: @dstreack Please feel free to share site links, either during or after the chat, but with this hashtag, so we can add resources #eltchat

marekandrews

2:22 PM

we need to instil a curiosity in ss to explore the way language works, all language +grammar is a big part of that #eltchat

patjack67

2:22 PM

@dreadnought001 wouldn't like to have that discussion with 6 year-olds! #eltchat

cherrymp

2:22 PM

#eltchat @Shaunwilden @rliberni  i think v can - there're many parts where eng is used without a concern foέΑο (cont) http://deck.ly/~Y4tpf

dstreack

2:22 PM

Really good one here:  www.123teachme.com  w/ native spkrs, audio, exercises, quizzes, mixed up sentences #eltchat

hartle

2:22 PM

#eltchat with intermediate classes there is often a level mixture, so some areas new for some but consolidation for others.

sandymillin

2:22 PM

@cerirhiannon & I wrote post about Cuisenaire rods in class including idea for phrasal verbs word order http://wp.me/p18yiK-5X #eltchat

cioccas

2:22 PM

@teflerinha Thnks! It's those that aren't ready I worry about tho #ELTchat

pjgallantry

2:22 PM

#eltchat students get very uptight about being grammatically 'accurate' - they need to be exposed to how native speakers abuse the lang!

pjgallantry

2:23 PM

#eltchat yes - grammar without content/context meaningless (and vice-versa?)

timjulian60

2:23 PM

So many grammar rules (eg use of future forms) are impossible to hold in mind when speaking - so grammar teaching only a 1st step #eltchat

FarnhamCastle

2:23 PM

#eltchat When you transcribe real talk, noone speaks grammatically. but need to know grmr to decypher meaning from ungrammatical talk

lolonagi

2:23 PM

@Shaunwilden  heheheheh yes..... but I think second language learner are much good in it #eltchat

dreadnought001

2:23 PM

@patjack67 no, fair point :-), but then not sure that six year olds have ingrained ideas of what language learning is!! #eltchat

cherrymp

2:23 PM

@mattledding where can one see this? #eltchat

hartle

2:23 PM

#eltchat it's also important not to be too accuracy obssessed: QUITE natural for many teachers when we hear something we think of as WRONG

sandymillin

2:23 PM

@esolcourses but at same time, higher levels may need more emphasis on grammar as already fluent, but w/ lower accuracy (my exp.) #ELTChat

barbsaka

2:23 PM

RT @cherrymp: reminded of wt one of the teachers say here 'no tense no sense' #eltchat

esolcourses

2:23 PM

RT @chucksandy: for me grammar needs rise up out of tasks that have an outcome. What's the point of grammar learning w/out real need for use?  #eltchat

rliberni

2:23 PM

@OUPELTGlobal not like yes, but it was the basis of the method #eltchat

cherrymp

2:23 PM

reminded of wt one of the teachers say here 'no tense no sense' #eltchat

lolonagi

2:23 PM

@OUPELTGlobal  yes exactly.... #eltchat

mattledding

2:23 PM

#eltchat has anyone seen Swan's grammar presentation? Demonstrates vocab w/o gramr with invented language. Brilliant!

Shaunwilden

2:23 PM

@lolonagi  if I go to a shop I dont need grammr to buy my food #eltchat

OUPELTGlobal

2:24 PM

RT @rliberni: @harrisonmike it was very 70s, very IH and very RSA :-) I wdn't do it so rigorously now but it has it's uses #eltchat

lu_bodeman

2:24 PM

Hi everyone, I just got here. Still time to join the #eltchat?

miladakrajewska

2:24 PM

RT @marekandrews: @Shaunwilden @lolonagi you don't need any language to buy food these days...#eltchat

cherrymp

2:24 PM

that's a good pt > accuracy at the cost of fluency #eltchat - opinions?

dstreack

2:24 PM

My HS students seem to "need" to understand grammar so we spend a lot of time on it #eltchat

sandymillin

2:24 PM

Jamie Keddie's excellent lessonstream.org allows you to search for video-based lessons by language point http://bit.ly/kpXbeY #eltchat

marekandrews

2:24 PM

@Shaunwilden @lolonagi you don't need any language to buy food these days...#eltchat

Shaunwilden

2:24 PM

@harrisonmike Yes agreed, it needs the implied grammar #eltchat

hartle

2:24 PM

#eltchat lexical grammar often largely ignored

rliberni

2:24 PM

@harrisonmike  it was very 70s, very IH and very RSA :-) I wouldn't do it so rigorously now but it has it's uses #eltchat

rliberni

2:25 PM

@OUPELTGlobal sorry lost the thead - expand on what - how to present? #eltchat

OUPELTGlobal

2:25 PM

Sorry gotta go listen to Guy Cook talking on translation. looking forward to reading the summary #eltchat

teflgeek

2:25 PM

@cherrymp I see accuracy and fluency as a kind of DNA spiral - constantly interconnected and perpetually rising #eltchat

LizziePinard

2:25 PM

RT @chucksandy: Not to be contrary but i'm against language banking e.g. learning a grammar point for no reason except it's next on the syllabus #eltchat

cherrymp

2:25 PM

@chucksandy i agree - can't teach grammar for grammar's sake #eltchat

hartle

2:25 PM

RT @FarnhamCastle: #eltchat When you transcribe real talk, people use comparatives to compare or we don't understand etc. this is key.

chucksandy

2:25 PM

RT @lu_bodeman: great to see you! welcome ^^  #eltchat

esolcourses

2:25 PM

@sandymillin you're probably right, although there are lots of different ways of going about it. #ELTChat

sandymillin

2:25 PM

Another good site is http://moviesegmentstoassessgrammargoals.blogspot.com/ #eltchat <used 4 reported speech w/ teens<they loved it

rliberni

2:25 PM

@esolcourses  I did my degree in English too and grammar was a key subject (didn't like or understand until I started teaching) #eltchat

cherrymp

2:25 PM

@lu_bodeman u r never late for an #eltchat

chucksandy

2:25 PM

Not to be contrary but i'm against language banking e.g. learning a grammar point for no reason except it's next on the syllabus #eltchat

barbsaka

2:25 PM

@lu_bodeman Always happy to have you! #eltchat

patjack67

2:26 PM

@chucksandy So you're against banking but surely not building? (Ireland's downfall)  #eltchat

sandymillin

2:26 PM

Oxford Basics: Teaching Grammar by @jimscriv is nice simple book for teachers starting out http://amzn.to/mywSBb #eltchat<lots of ideas

cioccas

2:26 PM

This site is useful for grammar presentation: Movie Segments to Assess (practice) Grammar Goals (points) http://bit.ly/ix4VBF #ELTchat

lolonagi

2:26 PM

@cherrymp  prescriptive grammar #eltchat

barbsaka

2:26 PM

Way we present new grammar seems to depend on our own experience learning it, our students' preferences, ages, and type of class #eltchat

hartle

2:26 PM

RT @hartle: #eltchat what about lexis?

EHerrod

2:26 PM

@marekandrews now that I agree with! #eltchat

pjgallantry

2:26 PM

#eltchat @chucksandy yes, but unfortunately that's exactly how many lang courses and CBs are planned out!

lu_bodeman

2:26 PM

RT@chucksandy for me grammar needs rise up out of tasks that have an outcome. >>> I feel the same way #eltchat

miladakrajewska

2:26 PM

RT @esolcourses: RT @marekandrews we need to instil a curiosity in ss to explore the way language works, all language +grammar is a big part of that #eltchat

cherrymp

2:26 PM

prescriptive grammar or descriptive grammar? #eltchat

dstreack

2:26 PM

With HS, showing it to them in context first (intro a new topic) seems to be confusing for them #eltchat

esolcourses

2:26 PM

RT @marekandrews we need to instil a curiosity in ss to explore the way language works, all language +grammar is a big part of that #eltchat

marekandrews

2:26 PM

you could argue that having a good grammar book is far more important than having a coursebook #eltchat

aClilToClimb

2:26 PM

RT @teflerinha: #eltchat #esol #elt Was asked a q this am in webinar abt use of subtitles when listening. Anyone know any research on this? Pls retweet

chucksandy

2:26 PM

Please have a look at my student @ysmcu 's new motivation blog & give an encouraging comment ^^ http://ysmcu.page4.me/ #eltchat #motivation

lu_bodeman

2:27 PM

I find it senseless to present lessons based on the order of how grammar should be learnt. I question the order. #eltchat

rliberni

2:27 PM

@cherrymp  actually I fear this - I' can be a bit of a purist when it comes to lang - I want my students to b the best they can be! #eltchat

sandymillin

2:27 PM

RT @dreadnought001: important to discuss with Sts the function/role of grammar/why we learn it, why we won't only study grammar in class #eltchat

cherrymp

2:27 PM

@teflgeek wow that's a cool thing u said - can imagine d helix - bt think of poor sl learners #eltchat

marekandrews

2:27 PM

need to teach function of grammar alongside form, for far too long just form was taught. #eltchat

sandymillin

2:27 PM

RT @Shaunwilden: @rliberni We can speak without grammar ,cant we? #eltchat <but only 2 a certain level - depends what u want 2 achieve

teflerinha

2:27 PM

@marekandrews:  having a good grammar book is far more important than having a coursebook #eltchat- Depends on how each is used

teflgeek

2:27 PM

@cherrymp it ain't wot u say it's the way wot you says it... #eltchat

lolonagi

2:27 PM

RT @cioccas: This site is useful for grammar presentation: Movie Segments to Assess (practice) Grammar Goals (points) http://bit.ly/ix4VBF #ELTchat

miladakrajewska

2:27 PM

RT @sandymillin: Oxford Basics: Teaching Grammar by @jimscriv is nice simple book for teachers starting out http://amzn.to/mywSBb #eltchat<lots of ideas

chucksandy

2:27 PM

RT @pjgallantry: yes, but unfortunately thats exactly how many lang courses and CBs are planned out! < what can we do about that?  #eltchat

dstreack

2:27 PM

HS sts want to know "why" they're doing something #eltchat

lu_bodeman

2:28 PM

Grammar for me is a means to an end, not an end in itself. Unfortunately, DOS's don't always agree, or some T's. #eltchat

lolonagi

2:28 PM

RT @chucksandy: i guess the question is: do students really learn grammar when we "teach" it in the traditional sense? I don't think most do.  #eltchat

hartle

2:28 PM

RT @lu_bodeman: I find it senseless to present lessons based on the order of how grammar should...I question the order. #eltchat I agree

cherrymp

2:28 PM

@rliberni :-) that's a good ideal to aspire for - bt shud it b imposing? #eltchat

chucksandy

2:28 PM

i guess the question is: do students really learn grammar when we "teach" it in the traditional sense? I don't think most do.  #eltchat

barbsaka

2:28 PM

@lu_bodeman How do you think it should be taught?  #eltchat

marekandrews

2:28 PM

e.g diff between I have lost the book and the book has been lost, reasons for passivisation+not just form #eltchat

rliberni

2:28 PM

@lu_bodeman what is the order? #eltchat

pjgallantry

2:28 PM

#eltchat @chucksandy strangle the Publishers with the guts of the language school owners!

cherrymp

2:28 PM

@teflgeek yeah the good old manner vs. matter debate #eltchat

patjack67

2:28 PM

@marekandrews Isn't a good coursebook one that gets the blend right when it comes to grammar presentation? #eltchat

teflerinha

2:28 PM

@chucksandy Agree- but reality is many teachers R forced 2 follow syllabus, so mayB ts need 2 try 2 make syllabs fit the ss needs? #eltchat

lu_bodeman

2:29 PM

Ss worry so much abt getting the structure right (for exams) that they forget there is more to it than that. Who's at fault here? #eltchat

marekandrews

2:29 PM

@patjack67 i think that's right but increasingly if we use texts relevant to ss a good pedagogical grammar might be all we need #eltchat

cherrymp

2:29 PM

@mattledding that's a good thing - plz do #eltchat

barbsaka

2:29 PM

@chucksandy I think that some students will "get it" because it resonates for them. Others will find resonance later :-) #eltchat

rliberni

2:29 PM

@pjgallantry hey steady on! Some of us do our best here Lol :-) #eltchat

cherrymp

2:29 PM

@chucksandy that's true - bt d same holds with all that we teach rt? #eltchat

mattledding

2:29 PM

#eltchat @cherrymp I saw it at a convention (apac) in barcelona.  I have the notes and I can check to see if it's ok to post them.

chucksandy

2:29 PM

RT @pjgallantry: better yet: just stop buying those books ^^ #eltchat

teflgeek

2:29 PM

@cherrymp ref DNA:  accuracy and fluency and mutually supportive aspects of the same spectrum (I reckon) #eltchat

naomishema

2:29 PM

#eltchat Hi! sorry I'm late! lunch guests just left and ignored the clearing up to join the chat!

pjgallantry

2:29 PM

#eltchat looks like we're headed towards ELT Unplugged Territory again!

Shaunwilden

2:29 PM

@lu_bodeman Are you advocating the natural order? #eltchat

esolcourses

2:29 PM

@rliberni I'm not anti-grammar per-se, just prefer to deal with it as & when it comes up and focus on communicative stuff in class #ELTChat

chucksandy

2:29 PM

What's love got to do with it? Please take 3 minutes to take my freshman Ss' simple survey. http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/VBYVNBR #eltchat

rliberni

2:30 PM

@hartle yes, this can be  problem and it can also become a pre-occupation with some groups of learners #eltchat

barbsaka

2:30 PM

@jefflebow I think people are challenged to type and talk and listen and read at the same time. I am, anyway :-)  #eltchat

chucksandy

2:30 PM

RT @cherrymp: bt d same holds with all that we teach rt? > exactly. Just because you're teaching doesn't mean they're learning ^^ #eltchat

patjack67

2:30 PM

@chucksandy @pjgallantry #eltchat There should be various strands of planning when a CB is mapped out.

pjgallantry

2:30 PM

#eltchat well, let's look at the grammar WE'RE using in this chat - what can we say about it?

hartle

2:30 PM

#eltchat my problem is often to get stds away from grammar. Thy learnt it at school and think that's all language is

cherrymp

2:30 PM

what abt a grammar sense in sme students - a faculty to pick up grammar jst like that #eltchat

rliberni

2:30 PM

@chucksandy I think it really depends what level and what language and what their own experience is #eltchat

teflgeek

2:30 PM

@cherrymp ref DNA:  accuracy and fluency are mutually supportive aspects of the same spectrum (I reckon) #eltchat

dstreack

2:30 PM

What sms to work for me is lots of grammar Yr3, lots of read/write/speak/list Yr4 - no grammar unless ?s #eltchat

rliberni

2:30 PM

RT @TheConsultantsE: Keynote Video Recording: Litttle Tech for Big Results by @barsaka http://bit.ly/m24Yxm #edtech #elemchat #eltchat #ellchat #kinderchat

cherrymp

2:30 PM

IATEFL Scholarships http://tinyurl.com/6k3pk4x #eltchat #elt #esl #efl #tefl #tesl #td #pln

cherrymp

2:31 PM

yeah @barbsaka digitally handicapped - feeling bad - keeping eye on eth - digital natives talking #eltchat

hartle

2:31 PM

RT @barbsaka: @jefflebow I think people are challenged to type and... #eltchat me too. U miss a lot until U read summary l8ter :-)

chucksandy

2:31 PM

RT @patjack67: @pjgallantry  There should be various strands of planning when a CB is mapped out.< well there are, right? ^^ #eltchat

rliberni

2:31 PM

So what do we do with it in class?#eltchat

esolcourses

2:31 PM

LOL! RT @barbsaka: @jefflebow I think people are challenged to type and talk and listen and read at the same time. I am, anyway :-) #eltchat

LukeMeddings

2:31 PM

RT @chucksandy 's last few tweets! Just dippin in between journeys but - what Chuck said!I agree #eltchat

Shaunwilden

2:32 PM

RT @pjgallantry: #eltchat well, let's look at the grammar WE'RE using in this chat - We were just discussinέΑο (cont) http://deck.ly/~fy7LJ

chucksandy

2:32 PM

RT @lu_bodeman: But Im not against CourSe books. But to me, I get more out of them as SourCe books. :) < nice! #eltchat

dstreack

2:32 PM

@rliberni I think we adjust based on our sts' needs or did you mean specific ways we use it? #eltchat

patjack67

2:32 PM

@pjgallantry @chucksandy Them's fighting words, PJ. Don't see need to strangle either. There's a happy medium. #eltchat

esolcourses

2:32 PM

RT @FarnhamCastle: Grammar best learned (& taught) within communicative context, rather than as set of rules - mimicking way mother tongue is learned #eltchat

BobK99

2:32 PM

RT @barbsaka: @jefflebow ... type and talk and listen and read at the same time. I am, anyway :-)  #eltchat! Intersting idea, but imposs.!

chucksandy

2:32 PM

RT @barbsaka: I think some SS will get it because it resonates for them. Others will find resonance later<I like the word resonate #eltchat

hartle

2:32 PM

RT @rliberni: So what do we do with it in class?#eltchat teach it when stds need it along with all the rest

marekandrews

2:32 PM

@chucksandy much explicit teaching of grammar is lost on ss and does not lead to learning #eltchat

naomi_moir

2:32 PM

Looking forward to Guy Cook talk on translation - about to start. #oup #elt #eltchat

barbsaka

2:32 PM

Oh dear, @jefflebow just called me a "mature" user :-) #eltchat

FarnhamCastle

2:32 PM

Grammar best learned (& taught) within communicative context, rather than as set of rules - mimicking way mother tongue is learned #eltchat

lu_bodeman

2:32 PM

But I'm not against CourSe books. But to me, I get more out of them as SourCe books. :) #eltchat

dreadnought001

2:32 PM

duz yr institution's view of grammar conflict w/ yours? In some places I worked, Ss had 'grammar lessons', which I found difficult #eltchat

vickyloras

2:32 PM

RT @brad5patterson: PLN interviews updated... who's next ?  So many gems yet to uncover !  http://ow.ly/5auhg #eltchat #edchat #esl #elt

TheConsultantsE

2:32 PM

TED talks categorized by speaker, title, summary http://bit.ly/jztIxU via @texjorge #elearning #edtech #eltchat #edchat

barbsaka

2:33 PM

@cherrymp see you later! #eltchat

dstreack

2:33 PM

@FarnhamCastle I think this is true in early lrning - but as sts get more sophisticated, they want the "why"? #eltchat

esolcourses

2:33 PM

RT @chucksandy: RT @marekandrews:  much explicit teaching of grammar is lost on ss & does not lead to learning > agree #eltchat

cherrymp

2:33 PM

i feel bad to leave it here @jefflebow thanks for bringing a new dimension to #eltchat - bye e'1 - catch this later as summary :-)

chucksandy

2:33 PM

RT @marekandrews:  much explicit teaching of grammar is lost on ss & does not lead to learning > agree: I'd change much to most tho #eltchat

BobK99

2:33 PM

@barbsaka: @jefflebow ... type and talk and listen and read at the same time. I am, anyway :-)  #eltchat! Thesis, perhaps :)

teflerinha

2:33 PM

#eltchat RT @lu_bodeman: But I'm not against CourSe books. But I get more out of them as SourCe books. :) #eltchat Agree !!- & I write them

hartle

2:33 PM

RT @chucksandy: RT @lu_bodeman: But Im not against CourSe books. But to me, I get more out of them as SourCe books. :) < nice! #eltchat

vickyloras

2:33 PM

RT @eOppimiskeskus Necessity & Promise of Online Learning| Powerful Learn.Practice http://bit.ly/m4e72H #seoppi #edtech #ELTChat #finnedchat

fionamau

2:33 PM

RT @Shaunwilden: 8 topics for you to choose from for this week's #eltchat, let voting commence http://bit.ly/jLFQp2

vickyloras

2:33 PM

RT @cioccas: RT @Shaunwilden: Last chance to add a topic for this weeks #eltchat http://bit.ly/iAGYFw

Shaunwilden

2:33 PM

8 topics for you to choose from for this week's #eltchat, let voting commence http://bit.ly/jLFQp2

chucksandy

2:34 PM

RT @LukeMeddings:   Just dippin in between journeys but - what Chuck said!I agree < that makes me feel better, Luke ^^ #eltchat

hartle

2:34 PM

RT @Shaunwilden: RT @pjgallantry: #eltchat well, let's look at the grammar WE'RE using ... yes, but we use iέΑο (cont) http://deck.ly/~I2zVy

cioccas

2:34 PM

@jefflebow @Shaunwilden Enjoying the audio stream, but can't give complete focus to both at same time :-) #ELTchat

FarnhamCastle

2:34 PM

@dstreack  True but the why can be deduced, rather than taught, and rules can inhibit fluency #eltchat

naomishema

2:34 PM

#eltchat i find that some SS always want clear unambigous rules for dealing with the language and grammar is the  only place they find it!

Shaunwilden

2:34 PM

@lu_bodeman Agreed,  but the natural order doesn't necessarily work either  #eltchat

Castellano3CAS

2:34 PM

ήΒζήΒΗήΒπήΒβήΒφήΑΓ RT: @barbsaka: With children, I think it's important to learn the language as chunks first, orally, before focusing on form #eltchat

teflerinha

2:34 PM

#eltchat @pjgallantry  Think approp grammar for discourse type is being used very subtly- to get message across w/out offending anyone!

CeciELT

2:34 PM

RT @Shaunwilden: 8 topics for you to choose from for this week's #eltchat, let voting commence http://bit.ly/jLFQp2 > Aye aye sir!

dstreack

2:35 PM

@FarnhamCastle  True enough - I guess it depends on students then - lrning styles, needs, etc. #eltchat

hartle

2:35 PM

#eltchat still think we shd be thinking in terms of lexicogrammar rather than grammar. The tow are inseparable

barbsaka

2:35 PM

Open invitation from @jefflebow to chat on skype about #ELTchat grammar topic, if anyone is interested after we finish here

FarnhamCastle

2:35 PM

@naomishema but grammar is not "unambiguous" and clear. Merely a convention of acceptable forms #eltchat

claire_hart

2:35 PM

RT @teflerinha: #eltchat RT @lu_bodeman: But I'm not against CourSe books. But I get more out of them as SourCe books. :) #eltchat Agree !!- & I write them

T4lK2PaM

2:35 PM

RT @Shaunwilden: 8 topics for you to choose from for this week's #eltchat, let voting commence http://bit.ly/jLFQp2

bamarcia

2:36 PM

RT @sandymillin  @cheimi10's  excellent lessonstream.org :search for video-based lessons by language point http://bit.ly/kpXbeY #eltchat

marekandrews

2:36 PM

mostly a waste of time trying to "teach" the past perfect #eltchat

sandymillin

2:36 PM

RT @EHerrod: May I throw a scenario out there? Ss asks for lesson on past perfect (I teach 1:1) What do YOU do? #eltchat <teach it!

hartle

2:36 PM

RT @marekandrews: "if you learn about 20% of the grammar you will get 80% ...#eltchat U hv to get right 20% tho

FarnhamCastle

2:36 PM

@naomishema Maths formulae don't have exceptions, cannot be ignored or amended to context #eltchat

chucksandy

2:36 PM

RT @FarnhamCastle: @naomishema but grammar is not "unambiguous" and clear. Merely a convention of acceptable forms < nicely said. #eltchat

barbsaka

2:36 PM

RT @marekandrews: "if you learn about 20% of the grammar you will get 80% spoken ability" Pareto principle :) #eltchat

EHerrod

2:36 PM

May I throw a scenario out there? Ss asks for lesson on past perfect (I teach 1:1) What do YOU do? #eltchat

barbsaka

2:36 PM

@hartle Can you give an example how you'd use lexicogrammar? #eltchat

Shaunwilden

2:36 PM

RT @marekandrews: "if you learn about 20% of the grammar you will get 80% spoken ability" Pareto principle :) #eltchat

breathyvowel

2:36 PM

RT @rliberni: So what do we do with it in class?#eltchat

naomishema

2:36 PM

@FarnhamCastle #eltchat SS DO see it as clearer because it has formulas like math which you place info in!

marekandrews

2:36 PM

if you learn about 20% of the grammar you will get 80% spoken ability Pareto principle :) #eltchat

pjgallantry

2:36 PM

#eltchat no such thing as unambiguous language rules! they can always be bent, if not have their heads ripped right off.....

ipodsibilities

2:36 PM

RT @TheConsultantsE: TED talks categorized by speaker, title, summary http://bit.ly/jztIxU via @texjorge #elearning #edtech #eltchat #edchat

harrisonmike

2:36 PM

#eltchat teetered - Your help appreciated. 1 question poll for #IATEFL members and conference delegates http://t.co/QJLWbol

brad5patterson

2:37 PM

RT @Castellano3CAS: ήΒζήΒΗήΒπήΒβήΒφήΑΓ RT: @barbsaka: With children, I think it's important to learn the language as chunks first, orally, before focusing on form #eltchat

marekandrews

2:37 PM

@hartle yeah and getting the right 20% is part of the art of teaching #eltchat

barbsaka

2:37 PM

RT @EHerrod: May I throw a scenario out there? Ss asks for lesson on past perfect (I teach 1:1) What do YOU do? #eltchat

rliberni

2:37 PM

my tweetdeck playing up. #eltchat

pjgallantry

2:37 PM

#eltchat, as to Twitter affecting language/grammar, this is good example of *context* affecting style/register of discourse

lu_bodeman

2:37 PM

BRB  #eltchat

dstreack

2:37 PM

@EHerrod If they know it by name, they already know how to form it - I would give real lang examples, paragraphs, etc. #eltchat

esolcourses

2:37 PM

RT @EHerrod: May I throw a scenario out there? Ss asks for lesson on past perfect (I teach 1:1) What do YOU do? #eltchat

cioccas

2:37 PM

@teflerinha I've been teaching a few Ss one-to-one who are getting left behind in class with grammar & feel they'll never catch up #ELTchat

LizziePinard

2:37 PM

RT @dstreack: @FarnhamCastle I think this is true in early lrning - but as sts get more sophisticated, they want the "why"? #eltchat

rliberni

2:37 PM

Given a range of learning styles, need, language experience, native language etc.. people find diff ways to learn & remember #eltchat

barbsaka

2:37 PM

@EHerrod Find a context for past perfect, and then focus on form :) #eltchat

vickysaumell

2:37 PM

RT @marekandrews: "if you learn about 20% of the grammar you will get 80% spoken ability" Pareto principle :) #eltchat

Shaunwilden

2:37 PM

RT @marekandrews: mostly a waste of time trying to "teach" the past perfect #eltchat

sandymillin

2:37 PM

RT @harrisonmike: #eltchat teetered - Your help appreciated. 1 question poll for #IATEFL members and conference delegates http://t.co/QJLWbol

brad5patterson

2:38 PM

wow... #eltchat is really early in the morning when you're in the US !  Howdy all.  Glad I've stumbled in late.  Looks interesting :)

chucksandy

2:38 PM

RT @Shaunwilden RT @marekandrews: mostly a waste of time trying to "teach" the past perfect< can't recall the last time I used it #eltchat

sandymillin

2:38 PM

RT @hartle: #eltchat my problem is often to get stds away from grammar. Thy learnt it at school and think that's all language is

FarnhamCastle

2:38 PM

RT @barbsaka: @EHerrod Find a context for past perfect, and then focus on form :) #eltchat <-context is king

naomishema

2:38 PM

#eltchat@FarnhamCastle So true, but many SS find grammar less ambigous hence clearer compared to vocab items with so many meanings!

miladakrajewska

2:38 PM

RT @bamarcia: RT @sandymillin  @cheimi10's  excellent lessonstream.org :search for video-based lessons by language point http://bit.ly/kpXbeY #eltchat

vickysaumell

2:38 PM

@EHerrod  #eltchat Re: past perfect: Bring in a timeline of events and ask students to include two in the same sentence

breathyvowel

2:38 PM

RT @rliberni: my tweetdeck playing up. #eltchat Mine too. (Testing 1..2..3..)

hartle

2:39 PM

RT @bamarcia: RT: @barbsaka: With children, I think it's important to learn the language as chunks ...#eltchat >agree! Adults too at times

FarnhamCastle

2:39 PM

@hartle Those writing exams should be more aware too of communicating a meaning, rather than a form #eltchat

vickysaumell

2:39 PM

@EHerrod #eltchat Re: past perfect:  If they can't relate the events, teach it

JonSenior1

2:39 PM

@brad5patterson how was your flight mate? #eltchat

hartle

2:39 PM

#eltchat the question of beliefs is important tho. Learners think they need all this grammar for exams etc. and forget abt lexis.

bamarcia

2:39 PM

RT: @barbsaka: With children, I think it's important to learn the language as chunks first, orally, before focusing on form #eltchat >agree!

LizziePinard

2:40 PM

#eltchat what about exams that focus largely on grammar? Here SS get a 100 question (most mutlichoice, most about grammar) paper @ level end

lu_bodeman

2:40 PM

RT @chucksandy @Shaunwilden RT @marekandrews:  trying to "teach" the past perfect >maybe thru situations that went wrong?  #eltchat

breathyvowel

2:40 PM

RT @miladakrajewska: Important for me to show sts their 'grammar info gap' before/while presenting - motivation! #eltchat <YES!

EHerrod

2:40 PM

@chucksandy @Shaunwilden @marekandrews agreed - this is one stubborn student. What's different tense each week. Gave in...#eltchat

hartle

2:40 PM

RT @FarnhamCastle: @hartle Those writing exams should be more aware too of communicating a meaning, rather than... #eltchat Absolutely :-)

miladakrajewska

2:40 PM

Important for me to show sts their 'grammar info gap' before/while presenting - motivation! #eltchat

sandymillin

2:41 PM

RT @barbsaka: Open invitation from @jefflebow to chat on skype about #ELTchat grammar topic, if anyone is interested after we finish here

EHerrod

2:41 PM

RT @pjgallantry: #eltchat so, what do we do to present grammar in class, seeing as that's the topic? :) Exactly!

rliberni

2:41 PM

@EHerrod @chucksandy @Shaunwilden @marekandrews I wld too if it helps then so be it if it doesn't then you have a diff convo w/them #eltchat

miladakrajewska

2:41 PM

RT: @barbsaka: With children, I think it's important to learn the language as chunks ...#eltchat >Do U drill grammar chunks with adults?

cioccas

2:41 PM

@hartle Yep, had a S once tell me she'd done ALL the exercises in 'Grammar in Use' so why couldn't she speak English! #ELTchat

pjgallantry

2:41 PM

#eltchat so, what do we do to present grammar in class, seeing as that's the topic? :)

naomishema

2:41 PM

#eltchat In lang. schools r your SS graded on whether they've included advanced  structures such as past perfect into their essays? mine are

marekandrews

2:41 PM

but getting ss to understand diff in meaning of she said it was great and Sue said it was great is worth it. #eltchat

barbsaka

2:41 PM

@jefflebow Share some of those great online resources for grammar, please :) #eltchat

dreadnought001

2:42 PM

Past perfect useful for reasons 'became an ESL teacher cos I'd lost my job' :-) #eltchat

vickysaumell

2:42 PM

@EHerrod @pjgallantry: #eltchat presenting grammar in class: I like Guided discovery

EHerrod

2:42 PM

@teflerinha yes indeed - totally agree with you. :) #eltchat

esolcourses

2:42 PM

@EHerrod I would set them some reading homework on the past perfect,  and then aim to practise using it during the next lesson :-) #ELTChat

barbsaka

2:42 PM

@miladakrajewska With adults, I pull out mini-lessons based on frequent errors :) #eltchat

teflerinha

2:42 PM

@EHerrod  Think it gives some stds a sense of control/progress to work through grammar- fine but embed in skills/vocab/tasks too? #eltchat

sandymillin

2:43 PM

@Shaunwilden Without this framework SS can get very lost. I start telling them from high-int upwards that there are variants #eltchat

vickysaumell

2:43 PM

@chucksandy @Shaunwilden R@marekandrews: mostly a waste of time trying to "teach" the past perfect< good for storytelling though #eltchat

hartle

2:43 PM

#eltchat onestopenglish a gr8t site for resources http://bit.ly/cZfvhn and skills based grammar work  http://bit.ly/cHC5pi

sandymillin

2:43 PM

@Shaunwilden The problem with not teaching SS any rules based on what u hear 'on the street' in the UK, is u need a framework #eltchat

EHerrod

2:43 PM

RT @vickysaumell: @EHerrod @pjgallantry: #eltchat presenting grammar in class: I like Guided discovery - nice phrase!

mattledding

2:43 PM

I tweeted an ungrammatical sentence for #ELTChat and it didn't get posted. Too chatbot like?

barbsaka

2:43 PM

My YLs don't know any grammar terms until they're writing a lot, but all work on accuracy, e.g., grammar #eltchat

marekandrews

2:43 PM

http://www.amazon.com/Natural-Grammar-Scott-Thornbury/dp/0194386244 gr8 book #eltchat

esolcourses

2:43 PM

RT @barbsaka: @miladakrajewska With adults, I pull out mini-lessons based on frequent errors :) #eltchat ] same here #ELTchat

FarnhamCastle

2:43 PM

RT @dreadnought001: Past perfect useful for reasons 'became an ESL teacher cos I'd lost my job' :-) #eltchat

elenakindyni

2:43 PM

RT @TheConsultantsE: TED talks categorized by speaker, title, summary http://bit.ly/jztIxU via @texjorge #elearning #edtech #eltchat #edchat

hartle

2:44 PM

#eltchat techniques I use depending on level: guided discovery, text based, contrastive analysis, consolidation frm error analysis

teflerinha

2:44 PM

#eltchat @vickysaumell yes, sometimes past perfect rlly important 4 making sequence clear- oftn wildly overused in practice activities tho!

mattledding

2:44 PM

No. forgot t in #eltchat Swan seen presentation grammar anyone brilliant use without vocabulary grammr ; )

sandymillin

2:44 PM

My teaching metaphors post http://wp.me/p18yiK-8N with an my explanation of grammar for my students #eltchat

dstreack

2:44 PM

@barbsaka Seems like we adjust based on our lrnrs  - that seems natural/logical #eltchat

pjgallantry

2:44 PM

#eltchat here's my EnglishUK 2007 presentation on Tenses and notion of distance http://t.co/IEd2bnW

marekandrews

2:44 PM

scott's book concentrates on the grammar of 100 keywords, the way to go #eltchat

barbsaka

2:44 PM

Loving all this sharing of resources for grammar practice! #eltchat

breathyvowel

2:45 PM

One thing I've been trying recently was letting SS decide metalanguage. Results incolnclusive so far though. #eltchat

barbsaka

2:45 PM

One YL class is creating a grammar game to help themselves become more accurate with number and verb agreement, and having fun! #eltchat

marekandrews

2:45 PM

once taught a one year language development course+we discussed which coursebook to use+ended up buying Swan's PEU #eltchat

babelannet

2:45 PM

RT @vickysaumell: RT @marekandrews: "if you learn about 20% of the grammar you will get 80% spoken ability" Pareto principle :) #eltchat

rliberni

2:45 PM

OK this is hopeless - have to bow out will catch archive later #eltchat Thanks to mods - @shaunwilden @barbsaka

chucksandy

2:45 PM

RT @vickysaumell: past perfect good for storytelling <good point So why not teach storytelling & past perfect takes care of itself #eltchat

sandymillin

2:45 PM

@Shaunwilden So what would you teach first if not present simple? how far into a beginners' book would you introduce grammar? #eltchat

miladakrajewska

2:45 PM

Which do you use most often 2 set up context for grammar presentation: the board, visuals, written texts or spoken lang? #eltchat

esolcourses

2:45 PM

@vickysaumell @chucksandy @Shaunwilden from a talk by Mark Powell, IIRC - "80% of English uses past/present simple tense" #ELTChat

naomishema

2:45 PM

RT @sandymillin: My teaching metaphors post http://wp.me/p18yiK-8N with an my explanation of grammar for my students #eltchat - USEFUL!

esolcourses

2:46 PM

@sandymillin I aim to cover grammar structures s's need to know. For example, beginners often need to use past tense in daily lives #eltchat

chucksandy

2:46 PM

RT @barbsaka: One YL class creating a grammar game to help themselves become more accurate w/ number & verb agreement & having fun! #eltchat

EHerrod

2:46 PM

Scott and Lukes suggestion in TU - get Ss to look at  grammar list in c/book if you have to work with one. What DON'T they know. #eltchat

dstreack

2:46 PM

Jeopardylabs.com for creating jeopardy grammar games #eltchat

vickysaumell

2:46 PM

RT @chucksandy: RT @vickysaumell: So why not teach storytelling & past perfect takes care of itself #eltchat  > I do!

hartle

2:46 PM

RT @sandymillin: @Shaunwilden So what would you teach first ... #eltchat follow the syllabus as a broad linέΑο (cont) http://deck.ly/~Mbprh

LizziePinard

2:46 PM

RT @sandymillin: My teaching metaphors post http://wp.me/p18yiK-8N with an my explanation of grammar for my students #eltchat

Shaunwilden

2:46 PM

RT @miladakrajewska: RT: @barbsaka: Do U drill grammar chunks with adults? I do - drilling gives confidence before personalization #eltchat

LizziePinard

2:47 PM

RT @Shaunwilden: RT @miladakrajewska: RT: @barbsaka: Do U drill grammar chunks with adults? I do - drilling gives confidence before personalization #eltchat

hartle

2:47 PM

RT @esolcourses: @sandymillin I aim to cover grammar structures s's need to know. For example, beginners often need to use past tense in daily lives #eltchat

Shaunwilden

2:47 PM

RT @dstreack: Jeopardylabs.com for creating jeopardy grammar games #eltchat

barbsaka

2:47 PM

@vickysaumell Comprehension of grammar might take care of itself, but doesn't always translate to accurate production #eltchat

hartle

2:47 PM

RT @EHerrod: Scott and Lukes suggestion in TU - get Ss to look at  grammar list in c/book if you have to work with one. What DON'T they know. #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:48 PM

Just observed a lesson with lots of metalanguage and T explanation -  Class totally bemused and confused ... #ELTchat

sandymillin

2:48 PM

RT @pjgallantry: #eltchat so, what do we do to present grammar in class, seeing as that's the topic? :)

lolonagi

2:48 PM

sorry had a little snack #eltchat :D

seburnt

2:48 PM

@EHerrod Ss often think they know a grammar point because they've seen/learnt it before.  They're an unreliable source actually. #eltchat

hartle

2:48 PM

#eltchat in any case all we cn do is point stds in the right direction, raise awareness and then help them to use language, whatever it is

esolcourses

2:48 PM

RT @EHerrod: Scott and Lukes suggestion in TU - get Ss to look at  grammar list in c/book if you have to work with one. What DON'T they know. #eltchat

vickysaumell

2:48 PM

@chucksandy @barbsaka: Re grammar game  #eltchat I do Project based learnign and one Y6 proj is creating games!

Shaunwilden

2:48 PM

RT @marekandrews: personalised grammar great, drilling of structures relevant to ss lives gr8 #eltchat

LizziePinard

2:48 PM

RT @EHerrod: Scott and Lukes suggestion in TU - get Ss to look at  grammar list in c/book if you have to work with one. What DON'T they know. #eltchat

naomishema

2:48 PM

#eltchat Mother tongue interference shows up a lot in grammar. No "perfects" in Hebrew and is hard for many SS to grasp the concept

chucksandy

2:48 PM

RT @vickysaumell: I thought that might be the case ^^ Learning how to tell a story is a great task & brings up lots of grammar ^^ #eltchat

marekandrews

2:48 PM

personalised grammar great, drilling of structures relevant to ss lives gr8 #eltchat

chucksandy

2:48 PM

What's iTDi? It's PD by teachers for teachers. Launching this Sept. http://bit.ly/lydoAU #jalt #esl #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:49 PM

RT @barbsaka: @Marisa_C So, less explanation and more doing :-) #ELTchat > and more working it out by the Ss> THEN lots of talk

hartle

2:49 PM

RT @Marisa_C: JClass totally bemused and confused ... #ELTchat This is the danger. It has to be practical, clear, in context and necessary.

FarnhamCastle

2:49 PM

RT @mattledding: #eltchat Swan focused on noticing grammar in the workshop and having us discover what was important in carrying meaning.

mattledding

2:49 PM

#eltchat Swan focused on noticing grammar in the workshop and having us discover what was important in carrying meaning.

EHerrod

2:49 PM

@seburnt hmm maybe yes. Perhaps depends on the Ss though. Mine seem very honest with themselves and say if they're not sure. #eltchat

vickysaumell

2:49 PM

@chucksandy  #eltchat Yes it does, we do digital storytelling. work on different strategies: descriptive lang, adding dialogues, etc

Shaunwilden

2:49 PM

T explaining is never a good thing #eltchat

seburnt

2:49 PM

#eltchat @EHerrod Ss often think they know a grammar point because they've seen/learnt it before. They're an unreliable source actually.

barbsaka

2:49 PM

@Marisa_C So, less explanation and more doing :-) #ELTchat

LizziePinard

2:49 PM

RT @seburnt: @EHerrod Ss often think they know a grammar point because they've seen/learnt it before.  They're an unreliable source actually. #eltchat

lolonagi

2:49 PM

RT @hartle: RT @lolonagi: sorry had a little snack #eltchat :D Me too :-) heheheheheh

chucksandy

2:49 PM

RT @vickysaumell: @chucksandy @barbsaka:  I do Project based learnign and one Y6 proj is creating games! > doing it w/ uni SS too #eltchat

hartle

2:49 PM

RT @lolonagi: sorry had a little snack #eltchat :D Me too :-)

pjgallantry

2:50 PM

#eltchat @Marisa_C yes - T should avoid metalanguage where possible - just adds another layer of stuff to be comprehended

teflerinha

2:50 PM

@EHerrod  #eltchat  True, but they may think they know it, and actually have gaps/misunderstandings

barbsaka

2:50 PM

Closing in on our last 10 minutes....anything we haven't touched on yet that you'd like to talk about? #eltchat

Shaunwilden

2:50 PM

@EHerrod Yes i just said to myself that never was a bad thing to say  #eltchat

marekandrews

2:50 PM

@esolcourses good to teach some past tense to beginners very early on #eltchat it is sadly often taught later

juanalejandro26

2:50 PM

RT @Marisa_C: RT @barbsaka: @Marisa_C So, less explanation and more doing :-) #ELTchat > and more working it out by the Ss> THEN lots of talk

vickysaumell

2:50 PM

@chucksandy  #eltchat We seem to be soulmates in grammar teaching... LOL

chucksandy

2:50 PM

RT @vickysaumell:  we do digital storytelling. work on different strategies: descriptive lang, adding dialogues, etc < love it!  #eltchat

rliberni

2:50 PM

RT @cybraryman1: WedChats Part I: #ELTchat (2) #ClavEd #ntchat #ptchat #libchat #stdntchat #yalitchat : http://bit.ly/9bCqR

miladakrajewska

2:50 PM

Smtms I provoke sts into making mistakes at the lesson onset (personalised chit chat), then use these errors 2 present new grammar. #eltchat

rliberni

2:50 PM

RT @Marisa_C: RT @barbsaka: @Marisa_C So, less explanation and more doing :-) #ELTchat > and more working it out by the Ss> THEN lots of talk

cybraryman1

2:50 PM

WedChats Part I: #ELTchat (2) #ClavEd #ntchat #ptchat #libchat #stdntchat #yalitchat : http://bit.ly/9bCqR

lolonagi

2:50 PM

@vickysaumell  do not understand the use of digital story telling #eltchat

dstreack

2:50 PM

What is the ideal?  Mix of both - explanation and usage? #eltchat

pjgallantry

2:50 PM

#eltchat I've just realised why I couldn't see all the tweets in this debate - I was only being shown the top tweets! stupid machine....

EHerrod

2:50 PM

RT @Shaunwilden: T explaining is never a good thing #eltchat - perhaps it sometimes has it's place??

CELT_Athens

2:50 PM

Voting is open for 8th June http://bit.ly/jtxgr6 #ELTchat

DaveDodgson

2:50 PM

By @englishraven How to achieve the educator's big 'O' http://bit.ly/mSYBZu #ELTchat

chucksandy

2:51 PM

RT @vickysaumell: @chucksandy  #eltchat We seem to be soulmates in grammar teaching... LOL < wanna collaborate? ^^ share stories? #eltchat

cioccas

2:51 PM

RT @seburnt: #eltchat @EHerrod ... students think they know it when asked. >Agree, I see the same!

EHerrod

2:51 PM

RT @teflerinha: #eltchat. Yes, agreed. Perhaps a gd starting point though for prioritizing grammar points if necessary.

hartle

2:51 PM

#eltchat student beliefs are important (and T beliefs) we only learn what we need ultimately.

lolonagi

2:51 PM

@chucksandy  any good online sites #eltchat

barbsaka

2:51 PM

I think sometimes teachers don't realize that grammar terms are not universal #eltchat

cossie29

2:51 PM

RT @brad5patterson: PLN interviews updated... who's next ?  So many gems yet to uncover !  http://ow.ly/5auhg #eltchat #edchat #esl #elt

naomishema

2:51 PM

@barbsaka Mother tongue interference? #eltchat

chucksandy

2:51 PM

RT @lolonagi: @vickysaumell  do not understand the use of digital story telling > equals using some media to storyboard a story. #eltchat

seburnt

2:51 PM

#eltchat @EHerrod I'm not convinced.  Having practiced present perfect in one level, for example, students think they know it when asked.

Marisa_C

2:51 PM

The second lesson I watched did not have grammar as a focus; but Ss made grammatically correct sentences AND communcated #ELTchat

Shaunwilden

2:51 PM

RT @barbsaka: Closing in on our last 10 minutes....anything we haven't touched on yet that you'd like to talk about? #eltchat

lolonagi

2:52 PM

@chucksandy  great thanks a lot #eltchat

juanalejandro26

2:52 PM

agree! RT @lu_bodeman: Comparative analysis of structures and concept questions work nicely. #eltchat

naomishema

2:52 PM

@barbsaka #eltchat students find it harder with grammar tenses that don't exist in mother tongue especially perfects!

hartle

2:52 PM

#eltchat. what stds believe they "know" cos they've studied it and what the "actually know" cn be poles apart

chucksandy

2:52 PM

RT @lolonagi: @chucksandy  any good online sites < DM me w/ your email. I've got a digital story project I can share ^^ #eltchat

LizziePinard

2:52 PM

#eltchat thanks for the great thoughts and ideas, folks--i'm off back to class... bye!

Marisa_C

2:52 PM

@pjgallantry Plus some of the Ss just not au fait with terms even in their L1 #eltchat

dstreack

2:52 PM

Don't know if I cld go "cold turkey" - no gramm explanation at all - my HS students want the explanation, the process #eltchat

vickysaumell

2:52 PM

RT @EHerrod: RT @Shaunwilden: T explaining is never a good thing #eltchat - Maybe it is AFTER students tackle a task themselves

lu_bodeman

2:52 PM

Comparative analysis of structures and concept questions work nicely. #eltchat

naomishema

2:52 PM

RT @hartle: #eltchat student beliefs are important (and T beliefs) we only learn what we need ultimately.

barbsaka

2:52 PM

@naomishema What about the interference, Naomi? #eltchat

miladakrajewska

2:52 PM

RT @marekandrews: personalised grammar great, drilling of structures relevant to ss lives gr8 #eltchat

hartle

2:53 PM

RT @teflerinha: @naomishema  yes, harder to get the concept straight- think we're back to context! (and plenty of it) #eltchat

Shaunwilden

2:53 PM

RT @Marisa_C: There is a grea fallacy believing that it's our job to explain - and our job is done with explanation (D.Willis) #eltchat

barbsaka

2:53 PM

@naomishema Good point. Do you put special attention on the places there might be gaps? #eltchat

teflerinha

2:53 PM

@naomishema  yes, harder to get the concept straight- think we're back to context! (and plenty of it) #eltchat

pjgallantry

2:53 PM

#eltchat important that ss bring in real, 'live' examples of things that they've seen/heard eg one ss said 'get wasted' this morning.....

hartle

2:53 PM

#eltchat at higher levels lexical grammar imprtant. wrong collocations create havoc in written academic English

Marisa_C

2:53 PM

There is a grea fallacy believing that it's our job to explain - and our job is done with explanation (D.Willis) #eltchat

Shaunwilden

2:53 PM

RT @vickysaumell: RT @EHerrod:  Maybe it is AFTER students tackle a task themselves - yes thats what i meant really :-)  #eltchat

chucksandy

2:53 PM

RT @hartle: #eltchat. what stds believe they "know" cos theyve studied it and what the "actually know" cn be poles apart < yes #eltchat

LizziePinard

2:53 PM

@Brad5patterson's PLN Interview challenge : "In which Icha(@yitzha_sarwono)is interviewed". Find it here: http://bit.ly/laCmq2 #eltchat

miladakrajewska

2:54 PM

RT @hartle: #eltchat. what stds believe they "know"  and what the "actually know" cn be poles apart > interactive compreh.  checks important

mattledding

2:54 PM

RT @Marisa_C: There is a grea fallacy believing that it's our job to explain - and our job is done with explanation (D.Willis) #eltchat

cioccas

2:54 PM

@teflerinha Yes, guess they will eventually, or realise they can communicate anyway. Thanks for the side conversation Rachael :-) #ELTchat

vickysaumell

2:54 PM

@chucksandy #eltchat We seem 2 be soulmates in grammar teaching<wanna collaborate? ^^ share stories? > Would love too! Will share links l8er

mattledding

2:54 PM

#eltchat I wonder if most grammar points / T explanations are convenient lies that work as vaccines against noticing grammar.

teflerinha

2:54 PM

@pjgallantry  Agree- though easier for ss in English speaking country #eltchat

chucksandy

2:54 PM

RT @Marisa_C: There's a great fallacy believing that its our job to explain -& our job is done with explanation (D.Willis) Love it! #eltchat

sandymillin

2:54 PM

Re: past perfect - i get SS 2 colour ex's of past simple, past cont, past perf in 3 diff colours -highlight that pp is least common #eltchat

pjgallantry

2:54 PM

#eltchat ....this lead to discussion og 'get' + adjectives, 'get' + prepositions - useful 'live' grammar

marekandrews

2:54 PM

@juanalejandro26 v nice with monolingual groups to do contrastive grammar activities #eltchat

esolcourses

2:54 PM

@marekandrews agree. Have disussed this with people who insist that "beginners can't learn the past tense" - not my experience! #eltchat

breathyvowel

2:54 PM

@barbsaka Terms not universal: so true, I heard the subject referred to as the case t'other day. Last heard that in German aged 13 #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:55 PM

RT @lu_bodeman: RT @chucksandy @hartle: #eltchat. what sts believe they "know"...and what they "actually know" can be poles apart  #eltchat

pjgallantry

2:55 PM

RT #eltchat @teflerinha Agree- though easier for ss in English speaking country - agree - T in NNES has to provide much more.

BethCagnol

2:55 PM

Sorry I missed this #ELTChat Teaching doctors today. Promise to read the summary!

vickysaumell

2:55 PM

@Shaunwilden @EHerrod:  Maybe it is AFTER students tackle a task themselves - yes thats what i meant really :-)  #eltchat =)))

chucksandy

2:55 PM

RT @vickysaumell: <wanna collaborate? ^^ share stories? > Would love too! Will share links l8er > looking forward #eltchat

lu_bodeman

2:55 PM

RT @chucksandy @hartle: #eltchat. what sts believe they "know"...and what they "actually know" can be poles apart < agreed!  #eltchat

barbsaka

2:55 PM

@naomishema So that's a great motivator for learning grammar! #eltchat

juanalejandro26

2:55 PM

RT @chucksandy: RT @esolcourses: @marekandrews I always wonder why we don't start w/ the past tense. ^^ #eltchat

naomishema

2:55 PM

RT @chucksandy: RT @esolcourses: @marekandrews I always wonder why we don't start w/ the past tense. ^^ #eltchat

cioccas

2:55 PM

RT @mattledding: #eltchat wonder if most grammar points / T explanations are convenient lies that work as vaccines against noticing grammar.

chucksandy

2:55 PM

RT @esolcourses: @marekandrews I always wonder why we don't start w/ the past tense. ^^ #eltchat

hartle

2:55 PM

RT @mattledding: #eltchat I wonder if most grammar points / T explanations are convenient lies that work as vaccines .. like that :-)

esolcourses

2:55 PM

RT @chucksandy: RT @Marisa_C: There's a great fallacy believing that its our job to explain -& our job is done with explanation (D.Willis) Love it! #eltchat

naomishema

2:55 PM

@barbsaka #eltchat my SS get higher grades on their essays in the finals if they use the perfects. that is their motivation to learn them

EHerrod

2:55 PM

@hartle indeed - I have a dialogue with them  - I have ideas about their gaps - but they can also have a say in where they struggle #eltchat

rliberni

2:55 PM

Rio Ferdinand comes bottom in footballer Twitter vocabulary league - mirror.co.uk http://t.co/HDQ5jP3 via @AddThis #eltchat #english #edchat

hartle

2:56 PM

#eltchat there's also a belief tht grammar is really difficult, whn it's simply a matter of acquiring a set of conventions to use

pjgallantry

2:56 PM

#eltchat do you notice that we tell ss one thing about a grammar point at a low level, but then say 'ah, but...' re same point later on? :)

marekandrews

2:56 PM

no contradiction btw focusing on form+developing communicative competence,fluency v accuracy was useful but we've moved on #eltchat

FarnhamCastle

2:56 PM

RT @Marisa_C: @chucksandy "Knowing about" and "Using" can be worlds apart #eltchat <-which brings us back to context

juanalejandro26

2:56 PM

#indeed RT @Marisa_C: @chucksandy "Knowing about" and "Using" can be worlds apart #eltchat

barbsaka

2:56 PM

RT @Marisa_C: @chucksandy "Knowing about" and "Using" can be worlds apart #eltchat

naomishema

2:56 PM

RT @Marisa_C: @chucksandy "Knowing about" and "Using" can be worlds apart #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:56 PM

@chucksandy "Knowing about" and "Using" can be worlds apart #eltchat

EHerrod

2:56 PM

@sandymillin SUPER :) #eltchat practical examples are fab!

esolcourses

2:56 PM

RT @lu_bodeman: RT @chucksandy @hartle: #eltchat. what sts believe they "know"...and what they "actually know" can be poles apart  #eltchat

dstreack

2:56 PM

@Marisa_C Why is our job done w/ explanation? I think that's part of our job as tchrs #eltchat

juanalejandro26

2:57 PM

I don't know how much time we have but... what do you think about teaching grammar w/formulas? subject+verb+complement #ELTChat

Shaunwilden

2:57 PM

RT @EHerrod: RT @Marisa_C: @chucksandy "Knowing about" and "Using" can be worlds apart #eltchat = yes indeed!

EHerrod

2:57 PM

RT @Marisa_C: @chucksandy "Knowing about" and "Using" can be worlds apart #eltchat = yes indeed!

teflerinha

2:57 PM

@pjgallantry  yes! Must  be really irritating! (But otherwise too overwhelming?) #eltchat

esolcourses

2:57 PM

RT @hartle #eltchat there's also a belief tht grammar is really difficult, whn it's simply a matter of acquiring a set of conventions to use

seburnt

2:57 PM

Yes!  Exactly my point.  Worded nicely. RT @Marisa_C @chucksandy "Knowing about" and "Using" can be worlds apart #eltchat

elizzabettta

2:57 PM

RT @chucksandy: RT @Marisa_C: There's a great fallacy believing that its our job to explain -& our job is done with explanation (D.Willis) Love it! #eltchat

chucksandy

2:57 PM

RT @Marisa_C: @chucksandy "Knowing about" and "Using" can be worlds apart > yep. Completely agree. Isn't using more important? #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:57 PM

@dstreack I didn't quite say that - pls re-read tweet #eltchat

teflerinha

2:57 PM

RT @dstreack: @Marisa_C ..explanation? I think that's part of our job as tchrs #eltchat Perhas depends what we mean by explanation? #eltchat

lolonagi

2:58 PM

@hartle  old ..... formulas #eltchat

naomishema

2:58 PM

#eltchat I find that SS with analytical learning styles  like to see a set of rules placed in fron of them while others "learn by doing"

chucksandy

2:58 PM

RT @esolcourses: theres also a belief tht grammar's difficult whn its simply a matter of acquiring a set of conventions to use #eltchat

hartle

2:58 PM

RT @juanalejandro26: I don't know how much time we have but... what do you think ... #ELTChat Id they helf the stds use them if not don't

barbsaka

2:58 PM

RT @juanalejandro26:  what do you think about teaching grammar w/formulas? subject+verb+complement #ELTChat

dstreack

2:58 PM

@Marisa_C so not "done" as in finished, but "done" as in "accomplished"? #eltchat

sandymillin

2:58 PM

@pjgallantry easiest way to see all the #eltchat tweets is via a client like tweetdeck - i have an #eltchat column and can see all tweets

FarnhamCastle

2:58 PM

@juanalejandro26 to me it becomes inflexbile #ELTChat

cioccas

2:58 PM

RT @EHerrod: RT @Marisa_C: @chucksandy "Knowing about" and "Using" can be worlds apart #eltchat = yes indeed!

Shaunwilden

2:59 PM

Anyone want to write  #eltchat summary?

BobK99

2:59 PM

Signing off #eltchat - thanks all. Salad calls

cioccas

2:59 PM

RT @marekandrews: rehearse, repeat, recycle, recognise, reasses, realise and rarely will you go very wrong... #eltchat > Neat!

lolonagi

2:59 PM

RT @miladakrajewska: RT @esolcourses: RT @hartle #eltchat there's also a belief tht grammar is really difficult, whn it's simply έΑο (cont) http://deck.ly/~ODP80

miladakrajewska

2:59 PM

RT @esolcourses: RT @hartle #eltchat there's also a belief tht grammar is really difficult, whn it's simply έΑο (cont) http://deck.ly/~ODP80

juanalejandro26

2:59 PM

RT @dstreack: @barbsaka @juanalejandro26  My students like the logic of formulas - gives them a process. #ELTChat

juanalejandro26

2:59 PM

RT @teflerinha: @juanalejandro26  Matter of different learning styles and different educational backgrounds? #eltchat

Marisa_C

2:59 PM

RT @marekandrews: rehearse, repeat, recycle, recognise, reasses, realise and rarely will you go very wrong... #eltchat> lovely

naomishema

2:59 PM

RT @barbsaka: @juanalejandro26 I think formula works well for students who really like patterns and rules #ELTChat

Shaunwilden

2:59 PM

RT @marekandrews: rehearse, repeat, recycle, recognise, reasses, realise and rarely will you go very wrong... #eltchat Wise words Mark :-)

dstreack

2:59 PM

@barbsaka @juanalejandro26  My students like the logic of formulas - gives them a process. #ELTChat

hartle

2:59 PM

RT @lolonagi: @hartle  old ..... formulas #eltchat don't understand this :-((

juanalejandro26

2:59 PM

RT @FarnhamCastle: @juanalejandro26 to me it becomes inflexbile and doesn't reflect reality of language in use #ELTChat

teflerinha

2:59 PM

@juanalejandro26  Matter of different learning styles and different educational backgrounds? #eltchat

FarnhamCastle

2:59 PM

@juanalejandro26 to me it becomes inflexbile and doesn't reflect reality of language in use #ELTChat

barbsaka

2:59 PM

@juanalejandro26 I think formula works well for students who really like patterns and rules #ELTChat

marekandrews

2:59 PM

rehearse, repeat, recycle, recognise, reasses, realise and rarely will you go very wrong... #eltchat

Marisa_C

3:00 PM

@dstreack Yes, our job is not 'done' with explnanation, nor is it necessary to explain - lead the Ss to understanding better #eltchat

EHerrod

3:00 PM

oh my - you guys make me hungry...time for lunch. Thank you :)) #eltchat

pjgallantry

3:00 PM

#eltchat - well,another hour has whooshed by: gotta go - teaching Future Perfect Continuous Passive to some humourless German Grammarians ;)

juanalejandro26

3:00 PM

RT @chucksandy: RT @barbsaka: @juanalejandro26 there are some formulas that work: when to use infinitive or gerund w/ like, love, hate, dislike etc #eltchat

eflmalu

3:00 PM

@lu_bodeman after you've already taught past perfect,use it naturally in class n call ss attention to it so they see y they learned #eltchat

hartle

3:00 PM

RT @esolcourses: @hartle IMO, I suspect that the perception of ... #eltchat Yes, quite probably :-)

lolonagi

3:00 PM

@hartle  I mean formulas are old #eltchat

chucksandy

3:00 PM

RT @barbsaka: @juanalejandro26 there are some formulas that work: when to use infinitive or gerund w/ like, love, hate, dislike etc #eltchat

bamarcia

3:00 PM

RT @marekandrews: rehearse, repeat, recycle, recognise, reasses, realise and rarely will you go very wrong... #eltchat

barbsaka

3:00 PM

Perfect summary! RT @marekandrews: rehearse, repeat, recycle, recognise, reasses, realise and rarely will you go very wrong #eltchat

mattledding

3:00 PM

#eltchat If u ovrexplain  1. ss that get you stop thinking. 2. Ss that don't, or go further, disconnect. Not good 4 noticing.

EHerrod

3:00 PM

RT @marekandrews: rehearse, repeat, recycle, recognise, reasses, realise and rarely will you go very wrong... #eltchat = man speaks wise :)

teflerinha

3:00 PM

RT @marekandrews: rehearse, repeat, recycle, recognise, reasses, realise and rarely will you go very wrong... #eltchat Like this-the 7 Rs?!

esolcourses

3:00 PM

@hartle IMO, I suspect that the perception of grammar being difficult at least partly stems from t's presenting it out of context #eltchat

pjgallantry

3:01 PM

#eltchat thanks to all!

barbsaka

3:01 PM

We're officially at the end of our chat, but @jefflebow and @Shaunwilden still on ustream and happy to talk! http://bit.ly/iM4ykV #eltchat

naomishema

3:01 PM

RT @chucksandy: Wow! RT @marekandrews: rehearse, repeat, recycle, recognise, reasses, realise and rarely will you go very wrong #eltchat

vickysaumell

3:01 PM

RT @naomishema: @barbsaka Mother tongue interference? #eltchat That accounts for a whole new ELTchat!

BobK99

3:01 PM

RT @marekandrews: rehearse, repeat, recycle, recognise, reasses, realise and rarely will you go very wrong #eltchat! Shdn't that be 'rong'?

juanalejandro26

3:01 PM

RT @mattledding: #eltchat If u ovrexplain  1. ss that get you stop thinking. 2. Ss that don't, or go further, disconnect. Not good 4 noticing.

chucksandy

3:01 PM

Wow! RT @marekandrews: rehearse, repeat, recycle, recognise, reasses, realise and rarely will you go very wrong #eltchat

juanalejandro26

3:01 PM

RT @teflerinha: RT @marekandrews: rehearse, repeat, recycle, recognise, reasses, realise and rarely will you go very wrong... #eltchat Like this-the 7 Rs?!

Annoula64

3:01 PM

RT @Ilotimo: Check the #Finnedchat blog http://bit.ly/kfEL5K All about Finnish Education   #edchat #edtech #eltchat #ukedcat #eduswe #education

sandymillin

3:01 PM

Anyone know of a kid's e-pal/keypal site to recommend to kids for the summer? #eltchat #yltsig

lolonagi

3:02 PM

Thanks so much for a great chat.... but skipped a little for food #eltchat

barbsaka

3:02 PM

Thank you @Shaunwilden and @jefflebow for streaming, and @Marisa_C and @rliberni for fab mod-ing, as always :) #eltchat

sandymillin

3:02 PM

RT @Shaunwilden: Hey we're still talking if anyone wants to join us  #eltchat

marekandrews

3:02 PM

@BobK99 yep that should be 'rong sorry about the spelling #eltchat

naomishema

3:02 PM

@vickysaumell #eltchat have to remember to propose mother tongue interference in time for another chat!

esolcourses

3:02 PM

RT @naomishema RT @chucksandy RT @marekandrews: rehearse, repeat, recycle, recognise, reasses, realise & rarely will you go v.wrong #eltchat

Shaunwilden

3:02 PM

@cioccas What was it like?  #eltchat

lolonagi

3:02 PM

RT @pjgallantry: #eltchat thanks toalllllllllllllll

juanalejandro26

3:02 PM

RT @Shaunwilden: Hey we're still talking if anyone wants to join us  #eltchat

teflerinha

3:02 PM

RT @vickysaumell: RT @naomishema: @barbsaka Mother tongue interference? #eltchat That accounts for a whole new ELTchat! - Good idea!

hartle

3:02 PM

#eltchat. thanks everyone, a lot of food for thought here. Have to get back to my exams :-)

Shaunwilden

3:02 PM

Hey we're still talking if anyone wants to join us  #eltchat

cioccas

3:02 PM

@jefflebow @Shaunwilden Sorry, won't be joining you after the chat, bedtime for me :-) Thanks for the commentary! #ELTchat

Kate_Millin

3:02 PM

RT @sandymillin: Anyone know of a kid's e-pal/keypal site to recommend to kids for the summer? #eltchat #yltsig

Marisa_C

3:03 PM

Sorry I couldn't join live chat but too little time to get set up while in class #ELtchat

juanalejandro26

3:03 PM

I've missed some #ELTChat I guess it's because you changed time zone! #LOL

seburnt

3:03 PM

Enjoyed the little bits I had the chance to take part in.  #eltchat

lu_bodeman

3:03 PM

RT@eflmalu @lu_bodeman after you've taught pst perf, use it naturally in class n call ss attn so they see they learned #eltchat > yes. :)

aClilToClimb

3:03 PM

RT @marekandrews: rehearse, repeat, recycle, recognise, reasses, realise and rarely will you go very wrong #eltchat

barbsaka

3:03 PM

For all of us who had trouble with Tweetdeck tonight, way to hang in there! #eltchat

Marisa_C

3:03 PM

RT @barbsaka: Thank you @Shaunwilden and @jefflebow for streaming, and @Marisa_C and @rliberni for fab mod-ing, as always :) #eltchat

chucksandy

3:03 PM

thanks for a great chat as always ^^ best to all for the day / night :-) #eltchat

vickysaumell

3:03 PM

RT @lolonagi: @chucksandy  great thanks a lot #eltchat > Will send you a link too, so you can see actual projects

naomi_moir

3:03 PM

RT @Shaunwilden: Last chance to add a topic for this weeks #eltchat http://bit.ly/iAGYFw

esolcourses

3:04 PM

RT @chucksandy: thanks for a great chat as always ^^ best to all for the day / night :-) #eltchat

mattledding

3:04 PM

RT @FarnhamCastle: Grammar best learned (& taught) within communicative context, rather than as set of rules - mimicking way mother tongue is learned #eltchat

marekandrews

3:04 PM

@barbsaka @Shaunwilden  @jefflebow  @Marisa_C @rliberni thx for putting energy into this+caring about it..great stuff! #eltchat

 

 

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