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Can translation (and translation tools) facilitate language learning and how can it be used to best

Page history last edited by Shaun 13 years, 3 months ago
 11:28 am Marisa_C: A short pre-reading before #ELTchat - transcript of interview with Guy Cook http://bit.ly/fRnlVg :-)
11:28 am sandymillin: @Marisa_C #eltchat What, homework? :)
11:29 am Marisa_C: @sandymillin what? objectin? #eltchat
11:31 am sandymillin: @Marisa_C Nope, reading it now like a good girl :) Model student you see! #eltchat
11:32 am russell1955: RT @Marisa_C: A short pre-reading before #ELTchat - transcript of interview with Guy Cookhttp://bit.ly/fRnlVg :-)
11:36 am englishraven: RT @Marisa_C: A short pre-reading before #ELTchat - transcript of interview with Guy Cookhttp://bit.ly/fRnlVg :-)
11:38 am esolcourses: RT @Marisa_C: A short pre-reading before #ELTchat - transcript of interview with Guy Cookhttp://bit.ly/fRnlVg :-)
11:40 am BrunoLeys: RT @rliberni: UK seeks to raise language entry levels http://t.co/jahxCYL via @guardian #efl #eltchat #elt#edchat #ukedchat #studyenglish #esol
11:41 am yassine36: Can anyone tell me what #ELTChat is about? thanks!
11:44 am englishraven: "Can translation (and translation tools) facilitate language learning and how can it be used to best effect?" #ELTChat 15 mins from now :-)
11:45 am sandymillin: RT @englishraven: "Can translation (and translation tools) facilitate language learning and how can it be used to best effect?" #ELTChat 15 mins from now :-)
11:48 am janetbianchini: Hi all- I'm sorry I won't be able to join in this #ELTchat today. Hope to attend tonight if possible instead. Have a great session all!! :-)
11:48 am yearinthelifeof: RT @englishraven: "Can translation (and translation tools) facilitate language learning and how can it be used to best effect?" #ELTChat 15 mins from now :-)
11:49 am annettecopper: RT @WarwickLinguist: RT @MangoLanguages: RT @rliberni: UK seeks raise language entryhttp://bit.ly/fl07BV #efl #eltchat #elt #edchat #studyenglish #esol
11:51 am hoprea: RT @englishraven: "Can translation (and translation tools) facilitate language learning and how can it be used to best effect?" #ELTChat 15 mins from now :-)
11:51 am braztesolbsb: RT @englishraven: "Can translation (and translation tools) facilitate language learning and how can it be used to best effect?" #ELTChat 15 mins from now :-)
11:56 am MartinWarters: "Education is the withdrawal from reality in order to develop certain skills" #eltchat. Wow! that could be a topic in itself!
11:56 am englishraven: @MartinWarters Yep - that line really struck me as well! #ELTChat
11:58 am englishraven: We're a few minutes from kick-off with #ELTChat today/tonight. Topic is "translation - good for language learning or not?" Please join us!
11:59 am Marisa_C: RT @MartinWarters: "Education is the withdrawal from reality in order to develop certain skills" #eltchat. > Great quote! Yes!
11:59 am rliberni: RT @englishraven: "Can translation (and translation tools) facilitate lang learning & how can it be used to best effect?" soon! #eltchat
12:00 pm Marisa_C: For the next hour my tweets will be dedicated to discussing translation & its role in ELT on #ELTchat - Please join us!
12:00 pm EclipsingX: RT @Marisa_C: RT @MartinWarters: "Education is the withdrawal from reality in order to develop certain skills" #eltchat. > Great quote! Yes!
12:00 pm EclipsingX: RT @rliberni: RT @englishraven: "Can translation (and translation tools) facilitate lang learning & how can it be used to best effect?" soon! #eltchat
12:00 pm hoprea: RT @Marisa_C: For the next hour my tweets will be dedicated to discussing translation & its role in ELT on #ELTchat - Please join us!
12:00 pm sandymillin: RT @Marisa_C: For the next hour my tweets will be dedicated to discussing translation & its role in ELT on #ELTchat - Please join us! <me 2
12:01 pm EclipsingX: RT @Marisa_C: For the next hour my tweets will be dedicated to discussing translation & its role in ELT on #ELTchat - Please join us!
12:01 pm englishraven: Welcome to #ELTChat everyone. I'm moderating tonight with @rliberni @Marisa_C Let's talk TRANSLATION!
12:01 pm sandymillin: #eltchat I liked Cook's idea that translation is the fifth skill - it was a key part of my lang learning at uni /don't use it in my teaching
12:01 pm TyKendall: RT @hoprea: RT @Marisa_C: For the next hour my tweets will be dedicated to discussing translation & its role in ELT on #ELTchat - Please join us!
12:01 pm bcnpaul1: righty-oh. for the next hour my tweets are dedicated to #eltchat
12:01 pm daysealbar: RT @hoprea: RT @Marisa_C: For the next hour my tweets will be dedicated to discussing translation & its role in ELT on #ELTchat - Please join us!
12:02 pm englishraven: RT @sandymillin: #eltchat I liked Cook's idea that translation is the fifth skill - it was a key part of my lang learning at uni /don't use it in my teaching
12:02 pm Marisa_C: Welcome to all in this early edition of #ELTchat - we have changed the time slot to accommodate colleagues from diff time zones
12:02 pm rliberni: For the next hour my tweets will be dedicated to #eltchat
12:02 pm chrisjw133: RT @englishraven: We're a few minutes from kick-off with #ELTChat today/tonight. Topic is "translation - good for language learning or not?" Please join us!
12:02 pm Shaunwilden: Guy cooks talk on translation and language learning is here http://bit.ly/dXYNFq #eltchat
12:02 pm antoniaclare: Help - do you think I can #ELTChat and write my presentation for next week at the same time?
12:02 pm esolcourses: RT @rliberni: For the next hour my tweets will be dedicated to #eltchat
12:02 pm sandymillin: RT @Shaunwilden: Guy cooks talk on translation and language learning is here http://bit.ly/dXYNFq #eltchat
12:02 pm rliberni: RT @englishraven: Welcome to #ELTChat everyone. I'm moderating tonight with @rliberni @Marisa_C Let's talk TRANSLATION! #eltchat
12:02 pm englishraven: RT @Shaunwilden: Guy cooks talk on translation and language learning is here http://bit.ly/dXYNFq #eltchat -> Excellent! Thanks Shaun.
12:02 pm Marisa_C: RT @Shaunwilden: Guy cooks talk on translation and language learning is here http://bit.ly/dXYNFq #eltchat > Wow, thanks Shaun!!!
12:02 pm hoprea: RT @Shaunwilden: Guy cooks talk on translation and language learning is here http://bit.ly/dXYNFq #eltchat
12:02 pm braztesolbsb: RT @Shaunwilden: Guy cooks talk on translation and language learning is here http://bit.ly/dXYNFq #eltchat
12:03 pm rliberni: RT @sandymillin: I liked Cook's idea that translation is the 5th skill - it was a key pt of my lang learning at uni #eltchat
12:03 pm Marisa_C: No time for Cook now so we'll check later #ELTchat
12:03 pm Marisa_C: RT @rliberni: RT @sandymillin: I liked Cook's idea that translation is the 5th skill - it was a key pt of my lang learning at uni #eltchat
12:03 pm bcnpaul1: good afternoon #eltchat. 1pm is very civilized isn't it?
12:03 pm rliberni: I rarely use translation skills at all now but have done in the past - gr8 for vocab work #eltchat
12:03 pm esolcourses: RT @Marisa_C: Welcome to all in this early edition of #ELTchat - we have changed the time slot to accommodate colleagues from diff time zones
12:04 pm Marisa_C: I learnt through translation as well but must say it was when I ABANDONED translating that my acquisition took off #ELTchat
12:04 pm sandymillin: #eltchat And in my own learning, comparing structures is often quite useful - what crosses over between L1 and L2 and what doesn't
12:04 pm englishraven: @sandymillin 5th skill (in order)? Or alongside the others? If translation is a positive, when/how do we slot it into our approach? #ELTChat
12:04 pm EclipsingX: RT @Shaunwilden: Guy cooks talk on translation and language learning is here http://bit.ly/dXYNFq #eltchat
12:04 pm Shaunwilden: What I find amazing is that there is no research to suggest translation is a bad thing yet it is generally ignored #eltchat
12:04 pm bcnpaul1: computer very slow so I may be lurking more than contributing today #eltchat
12:04 pm hoprea: RT @Shaunwilden: What I find amazing is that there is no research to suggest translation is a bad thing yet it is generally ignored #eltchat
12:04 pm Marisa_C: RT @Shaunwilden: What I find amazing is that there is no research to suggest translation is a bad thing yet it is generally ignored #eltchat
12:04 pm antoniaclare: I need translation skills all the time (live with an Italian) and it IS a real skill. We should be teaching it #eltchat
12:04 pm englishraven: Show me a beginner learner who is NOT trying to translate at some stage, and I'll show you ST's new coursebook series... #ELTChat
12:05 pm englishraven: RT @antoniaclare: I need translation skills all the time (live with an Italian) and it IS a real skill. We should be teaching it #eltchat
12:05 pm Marisa_C: @Shaunwilden It's the effects of the Direct Method still gripping all other later approaches IMOHO #eltchat
12:05 pm Shaunwilden: RT @englishraven: Show me a beginner learner who is NOT trying to translate at some stage, and I'll show you ST's new coursebook series... #ELTChat
12:05 pm sandymillin: #eltchat @Marisa_C My acquisition soared when in country, but translation helped (facilitator?)
12:05 pm JoshSRound: Hi everyone, Having very iffy internet at the mo. Will try to join in if I can #eltchat
12:05 pm Shaunwilden: I guess its tricky thing for a teacher to manage / use in a multilingual class #eltchat
12:05 pm hoprea: As any other tool in the language classroom, translation has to be used carefully, but it may be useful if used properly. #ELTChat
12:05 pm sandymillin: RT @englishraven: Show me a beginner learner who is NOT trying to translate at some stage, and I'll show you ST's new coursebook series... #ELTChat
12:05 pm rliberni: What struck me last wk on my PD course was the v natural interest in other langs from my NEST teachers - they put me to shame! #eltchat
12:05 pm sandymillin: RT @hoprea: As any other tool in the language classroom, translation has to be used carefully, but it may be useful if used properly. #ELTChat
12:05 pm bcnpaul1: i think it's a general feeling that translation is 'old-fashioned' but it's not #eltchat
12:05 pm Shaunwilden: RT @hoprea: As other tools in the lang c/room, translation has to be used carefully, but it may be useful if used properly. #ELTChat Agreed
12:05 pm englishraven: @hoprea @Shaunwilden I think that's an important point. Translation is there, always. But do we bury it or work with it? #ELTChat
12:06 pm rliberni: RT @Marisa_C: @Shaunwilden It's the effects of the Direct Method still gripping all other later approaches IMOHO #eltchat
12:06 pm yearinthelifeof: @englishraven @sandymillin Can be great at empowering learners when they're feeling overwhelmed by English speaker at front! #ELTChat
12:06 pm michelleworgan: Translation can be useful for highlighting specific differences btw L1 and L2, but should we be using it for other things too? #ELTchat
12:06 pm ELTchat: RT @antoniaclare: I need translation skills all the time (live with an Italian) and it IS a real skill. We should be teaching it #eltchat
12:06 pm rliberni: RT @Shaunwilden: I guess its tricky thing for a teacher to manage / use in a multilingual class #eltchat
12:06 pm Moacir2: #eltchat translation can be a gr8 tool for Ss to grasp real meaning of what they're saying
12:06 pm englishraven: RT @bcnpaul1: i think it's a general feeling that translation is 'old-fashioned' but it's not #eltchat > Or shouldn't be, anyway.
12:06 pm rliberni: @Shaunwilden this is true which is why it doesn't often feature here #eltchat
12:06 pm Marisa_C: RT @sandymillin: #eltchat @Marisa_C My acquisition soared when in country, but translation helped (facilitator?)
12:06 pm sandymillin: #eltchat People often think it's problem if NESTs don't speak L1 - teachers not on equal footing at same school ?
12:06 pm TyKendall: #ELTchat what i remember most about my CertTESOL course is the icy stare i got from lecturers when i told them i actually enjoy translation
12:06 pm hoprea: @englishraven @Shaunwilden Most importantly, do we know how to work with it if we choose to? #ELTChat
12:06 pm JoshSRound: Translation very difficult when faced with 10 multilingual learners #eltchat
12:07 pm Marisa_C: RT @hoprea: As other tools in the lang c/room, translation has to be used carefully, but it may be useful if used properly. #ELTChat Agreed
12:07 pm sandymillin: RT @JoshSRound: Translation very difficult when faced with 10 multilingual learners #eltchat
12:07 pm EclipsingX: #eltChat Students also seem to feel secure with some translation of vocabulary items. Maybe as you know a language more you need it less.
12:07 pm englishraven: For me (as a SLL) translation is what helped me realise how uniquely different the two systems are, on multiple levels #ELTChat
12:07 pm esolcourses: think translation is a good thing in general, but with higher level s's, predicting words in context provides more of a challenge #ELTChat
12:07 pm michelleworgan: Just yesterday a St of mine said he felt much more comfortable doing his homework and using an online translator #ELTchat
12:07 pm sandymillin: RT @JoshSRound: Translation very difficult when faced with 10 multilingual learners #eltchat <sth we can only use in monoling classes?
12:07 pm rliberni: AS a caveat I do spk other langs but didn't have the same natural instinct - interesting! #eltchat
12:07 pm hoprea: I guess we can also start by making a distinction between translation used in ESL and EFL. #ELTChat
12:07 pm bcnpaul1: the lexical approach is a v.big advocate of translation #eltchat
12:07 pm yearinthelifeof: @JoshSRound Good point - much easy to exploit in monolingual settings #ELTchat
12:07 pm englishraven: RT @EclipsingX: #eltChat Students also seem to feel secure with some translation of vocabulary items. Maybe as you know a language more you need it less.
12:08 pm Marisa_C: Translation perpetuates the myth that the native English teacher is always best or the NEST perpetuating myth? Chicken or the egg? #ELTchat
12:08 pm yearinthelifeof: @bcnpaul1 Another big plus point! #ELTchat
12:08 pm michelleworgan: Translation can be used in multiling classes as personalised exercise - just can't be checked by Tchr! #ELTchat
12:08 pm englishraven: @MartinWarters As a TBL-advocate, yes, I found that a bit of a slap too! #ELTChat
12:08 pm rliberni: RT @bcnpaul1: the lexical approach is a v.big advocate of translation #eltchat
12:08 pm Moacir2: #eltchat for long time translation was taboo- now even txtbooks encourage L1-L2 activities
12:08 pm bcnpaul1: nice to mix translation with pronunciation. sentences written in phonemic script #eltchat
12:08 pm rliberni: RT @bcnpaul1: nice to mix translation with pronunciation. sentences written in phonemic script #eltchat
12:08 pm rliberni: RT @Moacir2: #eltchat for long time translation was taboo- now even txtbooks encourage L1-L2 activities
12:09 pm Shaunwilden: RT @yearinthelifeof: @JoshSRound Good point - much easy to exploit in monolingual settings #ELTchat But not impossible in Multi
12:09 pm michelleworgan: RT @Moacir2: #eltchat for long time translation was taboo- now even txtbooks encourage L1-L2 activities| yes,that's true
12:09 pm Marisa_C: RT @englishraven: RT @EclipsingX: #eltChat Students also seem to feel secure with some translation of vocabulary items. > Esp YL's
12:09 pm esolcourses: RT @Marisa_C: RT @hoprea: As other tools in the lang c/room, translation has to be used carefully, but it may be useful if used properly. #ELTChat Agreed
12:09 pm evelinpj1: @hoprea I agree, translation should be used correctly only when it's necessary. But we have 2 use other tools in the classroom #Eltchat
12:09 pm rliberni: RT @michelleworgan: Translation can be used in multiling classes as personalised exercise - just can't be checked by Tchr! #ELTchat #eltchat
12:09 pm englishraven: @Harmerj What's your take on the 'translation in language learning' issue, Jeremy? :-) #ELTChat
12:09 pm Moacir2: #eltchat translation however can b used by Ss who find it easier say in L1 and wait for T to translate.
12:09 pm englishraven: RT @TyKendall: #ELTchat what i remember most about my CertTESOL course is the icy stare i got from lecturers when i told them i actually enjoy translation
12:09 pm antoniaclare: @sandymillin: #eltchat <sth we can only use in monoling classes? <No, I think it's fine 4 sts to jst use their own translations 4 themselves
12:09 pm cerirhiannon: #eltchat love the topic - think translation and contrastive analysis REALLY imp teaching tools - but haven't got time to join in :( sorry!
12:09 pm SueannaN: RT @Marisa_C: For the next hour my tweets will be dedicated to discussing translation & its role in ELT on #ELTchat - Please join us!
12:09 pm rliberni: @michelleworgan interesting this - do we need to be in control - a good way of handing it over #eltchat
12:09 pm yearinthelifeof: Big publishers perpetuate the myth that L1 is bad. WHY? So can sell same coursebook with same set of instructions in every country. #ELTchat
12:09 pm elenired: RT @Marisa_C: RT @englishraven: RT @EclipsingX: #eltChat Students also seem to feel secure with some translation of vocabulary items. > Esp YL's
12:09 pm rileymike7: #eltchat I guess that just as some ss are visual learners, etc, some will benefit more than others from translating
12:09 pm sandymillin: RT @Marisa_C: #eltChat Students also seem to feel secure with some translation of vocabulary items. > My YLs always translate back to check
12:10 pm michelleworgan: YLs above a certain age find it v difficult to understand come concepts without translation #ELTchat
12:10 pm hoprea: Haven't we been going back and forth with things that were once mainstream, abandoned, and now are coming back? #ELTChat
12:10 pm sandymillin: RT @rileymike7: #eltchat I guess that just as some ss are visual learners, etc, some will benefit more than others from translating
12:10 pm Shaunwilden: In the talk of @Harmerj I saw last week he showed an example of a multiling class translating poems it looked effective #ELTChat
12:10 pm yearinthelifeof: RT @TyKendall: #ELTchat what i remember most about my CertTESOL course is the icy stare i got from lecturers when i told them i actually enjoy translation
12:11 pm MartinWarters: @EclipsingX #eltchat That is interesting point as it opens up the question of teaching grammar or teaching lexical chunks
12:11 pm englishraven: @yearinthelifeof Unfair generalisation, methinks. Publishers usually write/design according to the 'market' expectations #ELTChat
12:11 pm rliberni: RT @Marisa_C: RT @englishraven: RT @EclipsingX: #eltChat Students also seem to feel secure with some translation of vocabulary items. > Esp YL's
12:11 pm Marisa_C: RT @Shaunwilden: In the talk of @Harmerj last week he showed an example of a multiling class translating poems it looked effective #ELTChat
12:11 pm Shaunwilden: RT @michelleworgan: YLs above a certain age find it v difficult to understand come concepts without translation #ELTchat So do adults :-)
12:11 pm JoshSRound: @michelleworgan: T may spk one or another lang of multilingual sts in class. Is it ok then to help those sts with translation? #ELTchat
12:11 pm rliberni: RT @englishraven: @yearinthelifeof Unfair generalisation, methinks. Publishers usually write/design according to the 'market' expectations #ELTChat
12:11 pm Moacir2: #eltchat translation can b extremely useful specially in ESP courses.
12:11 pm hoprea: Perhaps the problem is that many still look at translation from a GT point of view, which takes us back to those boring lessons. #ELTChat
12:11 pm evelinpj1: @EclipsingX @englishraven And for translation of certain words is better to use pictures, so students can associate the word!. #Eltchat
12:11 pm sandymillin: RT @JoshSRound: @michelleworgan: T may spk one or another lang of multilingual sts in class. Is it ok then to help those sts with translation? #ELTchat
12:11 pm rliberni: RT @Moacir2: #eltchat translation can b extremely useful specially in ESP courses.
12:11 pm Harmerj: @englishraven as GuyCook said at IH DOS conference, the anti-translation view has nothing 2 back it up. Translation is natural #ELTchat
12:11 pm EclipsingX: @Marisa_C also for academic learners trying to struggle with difficult vocabulary and concepts #eltchat
12:11 pm Shaunwilden: RT @Harmerj: @englishraven as GuyCook said at IH DOS conference, the anti-translation view has nothing 2 back it up. Translation is natural #ELTchat
12:12 pm Marisa_C: RT @Harmerj: @englishraven as GuyCook said at IH DOS conf, anti-translation view has nothing 2 back it up. Translation is natural #ELTchat
12:12 pm hoprea: @evelinpj1 That's exactly the point! We shouldn't make use of only one tool. Hence the importance of being resourceful. #ELTChat
12:12 pm englishraven: @Harmerj I agree. I guess the challenge then, is how do we work with it (productively) in the classroom? #ELTChat
12:12 pm yearinthelifeof: @hoprea What did decontextualised grammar ever do for us? #ELTchat
12:12 pm sandymillin: RT @Harmerj: @englishraven GuyCook:anti-translation view has nothing 2 back it up. Translation natural #ELTchat <I do it, even if 'shudn't'
12:12 pm rliberni: RT @sandymillin: RT @Harmerj: @englishraven GuyCook:anti-translation view has nothing 2 back it up. Translation natural #ELTchat <I do it, even if 'shudn't'
12:12 pm Harmerj: @englishraven we learn a lot about both L1 & L2 when we translate, and students do have brains so let's use them! #ELTchat
12:12 pm ELTchat: @TyKendall: #ELTchat on my CertTESOL course is the icy stare i got from lecturers when i told them i actually enjoy translation
12:12 pm Marisa_C: RT @Harmerj: @englishraven we learn a lot about both L1 & L2 when we translate, and students do have brains so let's use them! #ELTchat
12:12 pm Marisa_C: RT @EclipsingX: @Marisa_C also for academic learners trying to struggle with difficult vocabulary and concepts #eltchat
12:12 pm yassine36: @hopera Using translation is still mainstream in the French educational system! #ELTchat
12:13 pm rliberni: So, do we have any practical uses/ideas to share? #eltchat
12:13 pm sandymillin: RT @Harmerj: @englishraven we learn a lot about both L1 & L2 when we translate and students do have brains so let's use them! #ELTchat <yep!
12:13 pm yearinthelifeof: @Harmerj @englishraven Hear, hear! #ELTChat
12:13 pm englishraven: No L1 / No translation in the English classroom... Emperors with no clothes then? #ELTChat
12:13 pm esolcourses: RT @Harmerj: @englishraven we learn a lot about both L1 & L2 when we translate, and students do have brains so let's use them! #ELTchat
12:13 pm fceblog: How do you teach the word "beautiful" without translating? I mean, not giving your subjective idea of it. #ELTchat
12:13 pm sandymillin: RT @yassine36: @hopera Using translation is still mainstream in the French educational system! #ELTchat<think it is in many systems
12:13 pm rliberni: RT @sandymillin: RT @Harmerj: @englishraven we learn a lot about both L1 & L2 when we translate and students do have brains so let's use them! #ELTchat <yep!
12:13 pm michelleworgan: You can't always use pictures to illustrate a concept - often translation is much easier, effective and less time consuming #ELTchat
12:13 pm hoprea: @yearinthelifeof It helped us see it's definitely not the way to go when it comes to learning a language. #ELTChat :)
12:13 pm englishraven: RT @michelleworgan: You can't always use pictures to illustrate a concept - often translation is much easier, effective and less time consuming #ELTchat
12:14 pm englishraven: RT @fceblog: How do you teach the word "beautiful" without translating? I mean, not giving your subjective idea of it. #ELTchat
12:14 pm esolcourses: RT @fceblog: How do you teach the word "beautiful" without translating? (not giving your subjective idea of it) #ELTchat ] with images?
12:14 pm Marisa_C: RT @michelleworgan: can't always use pictures to illustrate a concept - often translation is easier, effectiveless time consuming #ELTchat
12:14 pm michelleworgan: What about teaching translation as a skill in itself, rather than just to explain new language? #ELTchat
12:14 pm EclipsingX: @evelinpj1 I also agree because sometimes a cultural concept from one language does not transfer to the other #eltchat
12:14 pm antoniaclare: I translate, I tweet, I'm such a rebel! #eltchat
12:14 pm esolcourses: RT @EclipsingX: @evelinpj1 I also agree because sometimes a cultural concept from one language does not transfer to the other #eltchat
12:14 pm Marisa_C: RT @michelleworgan: What about teaching translation as a skill in itself, rather than just to explain new language? #ELTchat > VG point
12:14 pm evelinpj1: Agree!. RT @rliberni: RT @Moacir2: #eltchat translation can b extremely useful specially in ESP courses.
12:14 pm Moacir2: @Marisa_C #eltchat agreed. Translation's natural. However, in language acquisition few can be simultaneous interpreters. So...
12:14 pm englishraven: As a learner, I noticed a sequence (in myself) of translating from words to chunks... #ELTChat
12:14 pm sandymillin: RT @michelleworgan: What about teaching translation as a skill in itself? #ELTchat <many ppl think / expect speakers =translators
12:14 pm yearinthelifeof: @hoprea I'm with you on that one :-) #ELTchat
12:14 pm Harmerj: @Marisa_C poetry-translation I showed last week from @Amandalanguage 's students. Ss translated English poem into their diff langs #ELTchat
12:14 pm Marisa_C: RT @englishraven: As a learner, I noticed a sequence (in myself) of translating from words to chunks... #ELTChat
12:15 pm englishraven: RT @Harmerj: @Marisa_C poetry-translation I showed last week from @Amandalanguage 's students. Ss translated English poem into their diff langs #ELTchat
12:15 pm yearinthelifeof: RT @englishraven: As a learner, I noticed a sequence (in myself) of translating from words to chunks... #ELTChat
12:15 pm esolcourses: RT @englishraven: As a learner, I noticed a sequence (in myself) of translating from words to chunks... #ELTChat ] same here
12:15 pm Shaunwilden: Do we need to separate translation and the use of L1 in the classroom? #ELTChat esp in e.g. the teachers classroom language
12:15 pm vbenevolofranca: Translation is handy with monolingual groups web can't get meaning lexical item across after attempts: translate! Quick & effective.#ELTchat
12:15 pm michelleworgan: When I did French at uni we did lots of literary translation - although we weren't actually taught how to do so and I hated it #ELTchat
12:15 pm Harmerj: RT @yassine36: @Harmerj @englishraven whether I aprove it or not, my students use translation when working in pairs! <exactly #ELTchat
12:15 pm rliberni: Is translation just a 'short-cut' tool? #eltchat
12:15 pm Marisa_C: RT @Harmerj: @Marisa_C poetry-translation I showed last week - Ss translated English poem into their diff langs #ELTchat
12:15 pm antoniaclare: RT @Shaunwilden: Do we need to separate translation and the use of L1 in the classroom? #ELTChat e.g. the teachers classroom language,yes!
12:15 pm MartinWarters: @Marisa_C @Harmerj @englishraven #Eltchat + you translate the translation back into L1- that is a great cog act. and shows diffs in lang
12:15 pm sandymillin: RT @Shaunwilden: Do we need to separate translation and the use of L1 in the classroom? #ELTChat <yes, but careful about message to SS
12:15 pm Moacir2: #eltchat so... The automatization of L2 reception+production must b encouraged over translation.
12:16 pm JoshSRound: Is there a danger of sts becoming dependent on translation, if allowed more freely? #eltchat Still need to insist on using English
12:16 pm Harmerj: RT @MartinWarters: @Marisa_C @Harmerj @englishraven #Eltchat + you translate the translation back into L1- that is a great cog act. and shows diffs in lang
12:16 pm eltworld: RT @yearinthelifeof: Big publishers perpetuate the myth that L1 is bad. WHY? So can sell same coursebook with same set of instructions in every country. #ELTchat
12:16 pm fceblog: @sandymillin There is a difference between translating to cater for a student's need to feel secure and the opportunity to discuss. #ELTchat
12:16 pm Marisa_C: @Harmerj Trans can be used in all sort of lessons and for diff activs - e.g. fixing a bad translation into ENglish is a great actv #ELTchat
12:16 pm bcnpaul1: @rliberni it is sometimes a shortcut tool, but why is that bad always? #eltchat
12:16 pm englishraven: Always a fascinating thing in multilingual classes to translate into their L1s, then give 'literal' translations back into English #ELTChat
12:16 pm eltworld: RT @englishraven: @yearinthelifeof Unfair generalisation, methinks. Publishers usually write/design according to the 'market' expectations #ELTChat
12:16 pm rliberni: It's 'handy', 'quick', 'shortcut', good with monolingual groups r we being 2 superficial? #eltchat
12:16 pm Harmerj: RT @Marisa_C: @Harmerj Trans can be used in all sort of lessons and for diff activs - e.g. fixing a bad translation into ENglish is a great actv #ELTchat
12:16 pm sandymillin: RT @rliberni: Itranslation just a 'short-cut' tool? #eltchat <can be. Diff 2 persuade SS 2 practise explanations (long way) when trans=quick
12:16 pm ALiCe__M: @michelleworgan Cook said translation is the skill that encompassed all other skills. #ELTchat
12:17 pm Moacir2: @Marisa_C #eltchat I translation teaching is gr8 discipline. But not all lang learners qualify.
12:17 pm sandymillin: RT @MartinWarters: @Marisa_C @Harmerj @englishraven #Eltchat + you translate the translation back into L1- that is a great cog act. and shows diffs in lang
12:17 pm fiandjo: #ELTchat I think translation makes you think more about the nuances of meaning versus exact translation and become a better language leaner
12:17 pm hoprea: Should we also allow for different 'amounts' of translation for receptive and productive skills? #ELTChat
12:17 pm Harmerj: RT @antoniaclare: It's important that we are encouraging sts to speak Eng rather than banning them from using their L1 < 100%agree #ELTchat
12:17 pm rileymike7: #eltchat translation is daunting for teachers, Esp Esol/multi-ling group - maybe control issue - it's in hands of student
12:17 pm sandymillin: RT @JoshSRound: Is there a danger of sts becoming dependent on translation, if allowed more freely? #eltchatStill need to insist on using English
12:17 pm englishraven: Allowing translation (and place for L1) always gets learners engaged, I find (and it's like giving them their bodies back!) #ELTChat
12:17 pm Shaunwilden: RT @Harmerj: RT @antoniaclare: It's important that we are encouraging sts to speak Eng rather than banning them from using their L1 < 100%agree #ELTchat
12:17 pm rliberni: @bcnpaul1 not saying it's bad at all - just trying to open the discussion and explore #eltchat
12:17 pm Marisa_C: RT @Moacir2: #eltchat so... The automatization of L2 reception+production must b encouraged over translation.> this translates into drilling
12:18 pm michelleworgan: RT @fiandjo: #ELTchat translation makes you think more about the nuances of meaning vs exact translation and become a better language leaner
12:18 pm englishraven: Hence, if it engages them, and has them thinking about language, and being themselves - can it be so wrong? #ELTChat
12:18 pm evelinpj1: @englishraven Yes, there are some difficult concepts that is better to translate to avoid misunderstanding!. #Eltchat
12:18 pm Marisa_C: RT @Moacir2: @Marisa_C #eltchat I translation teaching is gr8 discipline. But not all lang learners qualify.> agree but is training needed?
12:18 pm adhockley: #ELTchat Where I live, translation in the classroom is a political statement, so to remain neutral it's easier not to
12:18 pm rliberni: RT @hoprea: Should we also allow for different 'amounts' of translation for receptive and productive skills? #ELTChat #eltchat
12:18 pm sandymillin: @fceblog #eltchat I agree (SS need to feel secure / opportunity to discuss) but can b difficult for SS to see difference (trans=always good)
12:18 pm englishraven: RT @adhockley: #ELTchat Where I live, translation in the classroom is a political statement, so to remain neutral it's easier not to
12:18 pm gknightbkk: Learners' conversation are much more natural if they think about what they would say in L1 in the context before thinking about L2 #eltchat
12:18 pm adhockley: #ELTchat Which is not a pedagogical decision but is a genuine classroom one :-)
12:18 pm sandymillin: RT @englishraven: Always a fascinating thing in multilingual classes to translate into their L1s, then give 'literal' translations back into English #ELTChat
12:18 pm rliberni: RT @englishraven: Allowing translation (and place for L1) always gets lrners engaged, I find (like giving them their bodies back!) #eltchat
12:19 pm michelleworgan: The problem is over-reliance on translation, as in many state schools #ELTchat
12:19 pm MartinWarters: @bcnpaul1 @rliberni #eltchat Good point esp for explaining abstract nouns. A direct translation here the most suitable? Probably.
12:19 pm SueannaN: RT @rliberni: RT @englishraven: Allowing translation (and place for L1) always gets lrners engaged, I find (like giving them their bodies back!) #eltchat
12:19 pm englishraven: @adhockley What do you mean by translation being a political statement, Andy? (Intrigued!) #ELTChat
12:19 pm hoprea: @gknightbkk this is closely related to language and identity, isn't it? #ELTChat
12:19 pm sandymillin: RT @rileymike7: #eltchat translation is daunting for teachers, Esp Esol/multi-ling group - maybe control issue - it's in hands of student
12:19 pm yearinthelifeof: Rephrasing the idea: Do major publishers perpetuate the idea that L1 is bad? ;-) @Shaunwilden @JoshSRound#ELTchat
12:19 pm esolcourses: RT @Marisa_C: @Harmerj Trans can be used in all sort of lessons and for diff activs - e.g. fixing a bad translation into ENglish is a great actv #ELTchat
12:19 pm rliberni: RT @michelleworgan: The problem is over-reliance on translation, as in many state schools #ELTchat #eltchat
12:19 pm Marisa_C: RT @Harmerj: RT @antoniaclare: yes - this topic is not about use of L1 e.g. for class management but trans as a learning tool #ELTchat
12:19 pm englishraven: RT @michelleworgan: The problem is over-reliance on translation, as in state schools #ELTchat > Right, as with everything else in methods!
12:19 pm esolcourses: RT @rliberni: RT @michelleworgan: The problem is over-reliance on translation, as in many state schools #ELTchat #eltchat
12:19 pm sandymillin: RT @englishraven: f iegages them, and has them thinking about language, and being themselves -can it be so wrong? #ELTChat <no, but how2 do?
12:20 pm adhockley: #ELTChat Live in a majority Hungarian city in Romania. Classrooms tend to be mutlilngual - if I use translation in Romanian (which all know)
12:20 pm yearinthelifeof: RT @englishraven: RT @michelleworgan: The problem is over-reliance on translation, as in state schools #ELTchat > Right, as with everything else in methods!
12:20 pm hoprea: Translation of ideas, not words, might be effective in learning. #ELTChat
12:20 pm rliberni: @michelleworgan this is often to do with methodology also - French taught via English etc.. #eltchat
12:20 pm sandymillin: RT @gknightbkk: Learners' conversation are much more natural if they think about what they would say in L1 in the context before thinking about L2 #eltchat
12:20 pm adhockley: #ELTChat I'm also making a statement to the Hungarian students which i'd rather not make
12:20 pm Marisa_C: It seems to me then that a discussion of these issues we are worried about with the Ss is important #ELTchat to strike a balance
12:20 pm Moacir2: #eltchat translation in 1-1 classes should b limited to 5% of class(tops). In multilevel groups no more than 20pc.
12:21 pm fceblog: @esolcourses Which images? #ELTchat To me, a beautiful woman could be Sophia Loren and to my students it could be Lady Gaga.
12:21 pm rliberni: RT @hoprea: Translation of ideas, not words, might be effective in learning. #ELTChat #eltchat
12:21 pm englishraven: @hoprea Yes, as I mentioned, I've noticed a sequence of 'clumsy' (word level) translation to larger phrase-level chunks... #ELTChat
12:21 pm JoshSRound: RT @rliberni: RT @michelleworgan: The problem is over-reliance on translation, as in many state schools #ELTchat #eltchat
12:21 pm michelleworgan: @Moacir2 Not sure you can actually put a percentage on it - surely it depends on the stds, situation etc #ELTchat
12:21 pm sandymillin: RT @michelleworgan: The problem is over-reliance on translation, #ELTchat <def! Many of my SS come from sch w/o being able 2 function in Eng
12:21 pm rileymike7: #eltchat started discussion here in staffroom! Ss are 'always translating' it's 'reassuring'
12:21 pm yearinthelifeof: RT @EclipsingX #ELTchat I wonder sometimes if we are afraid of translation because we feel excluded from that part of the discussion.
12:21 pm lemaistre: One prob is overreliance. Japanese ss demand translation for rubrics, texts, examples so lack confidence when no trans there. #eltchat
12:21 pm hoprea: RT @sandymillin: RT @michelleworgan: The problem is over-reliance on translation, #ELTchat <def! Many of my SS come from sch w/o being able 2 function in Eng
12:21 pm rliberni: RT @rileymike7: #eltchat started discussion here in staffroom! Ss are 'always translating' it's 'reassuring'
12:21 pm Moacir2: "@michelleworgan: agreed. Translation is 1 + tool not the solution to language learning #ELTchat"
12:21 pm englishraven: Big question then: what does the non-bilingual teacher do in a classroom with translation? There are limits... #ELTChat
12:22 pm billpellowe: A lot of my students over-rely on web-based translation tools for composition. #eltchat
12:22 pm stopspanglish: RT @adhockley: #ELTchat Where I live, translation in the classroom is a political statement, so to remain neutral it's easier not to
12:22 pm rliberni: RT @Moacir2: "@michelleworgan: agreed. Translation is 1 + tool not the solution to language learning #ELTchat"
12:22 pm bcnpaul1: yes, agree - over-reliance on translation can make sts lazy and not 'aquire' the lang #eltchat
12:22 pm englishraven: RT @lemaistre: One prob is overreliance. Japanese ss demand translation for rubrics, texts, examples so lack confidence when no trans there. #eltchat
12:22 pm Marisa_C: @Moacir2 How have you come up with such precise percentages? #eltchat am intersted
12:22 pm rliberni: RT @billpellowe: A lot of my students over-rely on web-based translation tools for composition. #eltchat
12:22 pm SueannaN: I had a wonderful lesson in complete Franglais with a beginner. He WAS trying to translate .#ELTchat
12:22 pm fceblog: @esolcourses #ELTchat Another thing is to show a picture of something a culture considers beautiful and discuss it.
12:22 pm englishraven: RT @billpellowe: A lot of my students over-rely on web-based translation tools for composition. #eltchat Many of us have seen that, I think!
12:22 pm ELTchat: RT @rliberni: RT @rileymike7: #eltchat started discussion here in staffroom! Ss are 'always translating' it's 'reassuring'
12:22 pm sandymillin: RT @Moacir2: #eltchat translation in 1-1 classes should b limited to 5% of class(tops). In multilevel groups no more thn 20pc.< v. exact! :)
12:23 pm rliberni: @billpellowe this is a big problem linguistic and cultural #eltchat
12:23 pm JoshSRound: RT @lemaistre: One prob is overreliance. Japanese ss demand translation so lack confidence when no trans there. #eltchat >>Agree
12:23 pm yassine36: @englishraven what does the non-bilingual teacher do in a classroom with translation? > Learn Students' language !!! #ELTChat
12:23 pm englishraven: @billpellowe It must be a challenge, to accommodate translation without having it completely take over, become a crutch? #ELTChat
12:23 pm sandymillin: RT @lemaistre: One prob is overreliance. Japanese ss demand translation for rubrics, texts, examples so lack confidence when no trans there. #eltchat
12:23 pm michelleworgan: Students now use web trans tools instead of dictionaries - more or less effective? What do you think? #ELTchat
12:23 pm englishraven: RT @yassine36: @englishraven what does the non-bilingual teacher do in a classroom with translation? > Learn Students' language !!! #ELTChat
12:23 pm sandymillin: RT @englishraven: Big question then: what does the non-bilingual teacher do in a classroom with translation? There are limits... #ELTChat
12:23 pm stopspanglish: ...and what happens if NO one in class speaks that lx? and what if your students have dodgy literacy skills to begin with? #ELTchat
12:23 pm Marisa_C: I train translators via an onine course and their enhanced LA is amazing #ELTchat but their level is advanced of course
12:23 pm Xabitxo: RT @esolcourses: RT @fceblog: How do you teach the word "beautiful" without translating? (not giving your subjective idea of it) #ELTchat ] with images?
12:23 pm Xabitxo: RT @esolcourses: RT @EclipsingX: @evelinpj1 I also agree because sometimes a cultural concept from one language does not transfer to the other #eltchat
12:24 pm ALiCe__M: @michelleworgan The problem is time, not enough time at school to teach translation dimension, although it is needed and natural #ELTchat
12:24 pm englishraven: RT @Marisa_C: I train translators via an onine course and their enhanced LA is amazing #ELTchat but their level is advanced of course
12:24 pm hoprea: Yes, translation to confirm an idea is reassuring. Students are sure they've understood what they had to. #ELTChat
12:24 pm fceblog: RT @Moacir2 "@michelleworgan: agreed. Translation is 1 + tool not the solution to language learning #ELTchat" ->It's not a taboo either.
12:24 pm michelleworgan: RT @hoprea: Yes, translation to confirm an idea is reassuring. Students are sure they've understood what they had to. #ELTChat
12:24 pm rliberni: Do some 'cultures' want trabslation more than others? Or is it more personal? #eltchat
12:24 pm harrisonmike: Early #ELTchat? Have fun all, just about off to afternoon classes =)
12:24 pm sandymillin: #eltchat Comment from adv SS this week "This activity showed me I have 2 think in English, not just translate from Czech like I normally do"
12:24 pm rileymike7: RT @englishraven: Big question then: what does the non-bilingual teacher do in a classroom with translation? There are limits... #ELTChat
12:24 pm bcnpaul1: @lemaistre I remeber working in Japan & it was impossible to get 'em to put their electronic translators away #eltchat
12:24 pm MartinWarters: @yassine36 @englishraven #eltchat Using direct translation!?!? :)
12:24 pm SueannaN: RT @sandymillin: #eltchat Comment from adv SS this week "This activity showed me I have 2 think in English, not just translate from Czech like I normally do"
12:24 pm billpellowe: The nature of Japanese makes it kind of easy to detect. No personal pronouns so, "It likes skiing" type of sentences are common. #eltchat
12:24 pm englishraven: RT @bcnpaul1: @lemaistre I remeber working in Japan & it was impossible to get 'em to put their electronic translators away #eltchat
12:24 pm daysealbar: RT @hoprea: Translation of ideas, not words, might be effective in learning. #ELTChat
12:25 pm JoshSRound: RT @michelleworgan: Sts use web trans tools instead of dictionaries - more or less effective? #ELTchat >>Both can be dodgy!!
12:25 pm esolcourses: @fceblog physical beauty is invariably subjective - I'd show them pictures of nature myself. Discussion suggestion is a good one #ELTChat
12:25 pm stopspanglish: @rliberni : Spanish over-reliance on translation come from 40 yrs of bad direct-translation method. Scary results. #ELTChat
12:25 pm daysealbar: RT @Harmerj: RT @antoniaclare: It's important that we are encouraging sts to speak Eng rather than banning them from using their L1 < 100%agree #ELTchat
12:25 pm michelleworgan: RT @stopspanglish: @rliberni : Spanish over-reliance on translation come from 40 yrs of bad direct-translation method. Scary. #ELTChat
12:25 pm Marisa_C: No wonder the IoL DipTrans exam is one of the toughest to pass!!! #ELTchat
12:25 pm englishraven: Does appear that certain cultures more keen/reliant on translation than others. Edu background? Distance b/w L1 and L2? #ELTChat
12:25 pm SueannaN: RT @englishraven: Does appear that certain cultures more keen/reliant on translation than others. Edu background? Distance b/w L1 and L2? #ELTChat
12:26 pm sandymillin: RT @michelleworgan: Students now use web trans tools instead of dictionaries #ELTchat <less effective - no context, 1 answer only
12:26 pm hoprea: I tend to think that L1 shouldn't be allowed as much to beginners for different reasons - but lots of things to take into account. #ELTChat
12:26 pm Shaunwilden: RT @englishraven: Does appear that certain cultures more keen/reliant on translation than others. #ELTChat!00% agree
12:26 pm datruss: @fceblog Use images? #ELTchat
12:26 pm Marisa_C: @englishraven good Q - how does L1 culture affect attitute to using translation? #ELTChat
12:26 pm rliberni: One can communicate quite adequately without any language - these tools can be used instead of translation #eltchat
12:26 pm yearinthelifeof: @Shaunwilden I often wonder what would have happened if Headway had used L1 instructions / meta-language. Where would we be now? #ELTchat
12:26 pm JoshSRound: RT @Marisa_C: @englishraven good Q - how does L1 culture affect attitute to using translation? #ELTChat
12:26 pm daysealbar: RT @hoprea: As any other tool in the language classroom, translation has to be used carefully, but it may be useful if used properly. #ELTChat
12:26 pm esolcourses: @stopspanglish @rliberni think if s's become too reliant on translation, it can slow down their progress #ELTChat
12:26 pm fceblog: @billpellowe #eltchat Maybe it's a sign those web-based translation tools need to be used and discussed in class. Pros&cons
12:26 pm sandymillin: RT @hoprea: Yes, translation to confirm an idea is reassuring. #ELTChat <but depends on if they have translated 'correctly'
12:27 pm billpellowe: In my computer-based class, I tried a workshop approach on how to use translation sites as a tool. (Writing L1 to produce L2) #eltchat
12:27 pm englishraven: RT @yearinthelifeof: @Shaunwilden I often wonder what would have happened if Headway had used L1 instructions / meta-language. Where would we be now? #ELTchat
12:27 pm SueannaN: RT @esolcourses: @stopspanglish @rliberni think if s's become 2 reliant on translation, it cn slow dn their progress #ELTChat I agree
12:27 pm rileymike7: #eltchat non-bilingual teacher wd have to trust students are using translation tools well,- scary- but can check by monitoring production
12:27 pm Shaunwilden: @yearinthelifeof Tee hee :-) It did use to encourage translation in its first editions mind :-) #ELTChat
12:27 pm yassine36: @MartinWarters @englishraven #eltchat Using direct translation!?!? :) > it motivates stds as it shows teacher can do some learning efforts
12:27 pm englishraven: @billpellowe How did it go? #ELTChat
12:27 pm sandymillin: RT @rliberni: Do some 'cultures' want trabslation more than others? #eltchat <personal I think. Depends on exposure to other methods
12:27 pm hoprea: @sandymillin @sandymillin Agreed! That's why teachers should learn how to use translation for learning. :) #ELTChat
12:27 pm esolcourses: @stopspanglish @rliberni have encountered s's who feel the need to look up every word, & while doing that they miss important stuff #ELTChat
12:28 pm Marisa_C: RT @sandymillin: RT @hoprea: Yes, translation to confirm an idea is reassuring. #ELTChat <but depends on if translated 'correctly'
12:28 pm EclipsingX: @hoprea #ELTchat I am curious about why at lower levels translation should not be allowed:)
12:28 pm daysealbar: RT @yearinthelifeof: @Shaunwilden I often wonder what would have happened if Headway had used L1 instructions / meta-language. Where would we be now? #ELTchat
12:28 pm stopspanglish: @SueAnnan @michelleworgan - and translation leads Ss to believe that certain (incomprehensible!!!) structures are OK. #ELTChat #eltchat
12:28 pm fceblog: @datruss #eltchat Who chooses the images to explain "beauty"? The teacher? Who owns the learning?
12:28 pm sandymillin: @hoprea #eltchat Should learn how to use translation, but how much of language do you have to know too? Asked as multiling NEST!
12:29 pm Shaunwilden: RT @EclipsingX: @hoprea #ELTchat I'm curious about y at lower levels translation should not be allowed:)Me too, I def need it as a beginner
12:29 pm esolcourses: RT @fceblog: @datruss #eltchat Who chooses the images to explain "beauty"? The teacher? Who owns the learning? ] depends on the level, IMO
12:29 pm michelleworgan: @stopspanglish Not if you use their bad translation to highlight the differences #ELTchat
12:29 pm datruss: @fceblog You pick a few as examples, then they have to come up with their own. #eltchat
12:29 pm hoprea: @EclipsingX Allowing students to use L1 will prevent them from acquiring important features of pronunciation, for instance. #ELTChat
12:29 pm englishraven: I think one fear (and personally I think it's relevant) is that if you allow lots of translation, it takes over lessons completely. #ELTChat
12:29 pm rliberni: Some schools actively ban L1 completely #eltchat
12:29 pm billpellowe: @englishraven #eltchat Pretty good. They summed up in large groups by explaining to each other the various steps they needed to take.
12:29 pm JoshSRound: if clear, deducing meaning from context an important lang learning skill - this might be missed if translation becomes the norm #eltchat
12:29 pm evelinpj1: That's true!. RT @daysealbar: RT @hoprea: Translation of ideas, not words, might be effective in learning. #ELTChat
12:30 pm michelleworgan: RT @rliberni: Some schools actively ban L1 completely #eltchat| I disagree with this situation - it's not natural
12:30 pm ALiCe__M: @Marisa_C Well in France translation is baaaaaad practice but the French are not exactly bilingual speakers. #ELTchat
12:30 pm englishraven: @billpellowe Given your context, I think that's serious progress! #ELTChat
12:30 pm Marisa_C: RT @rliberni: Some schools actively ban L1 completely #eltchat > their DOSes still live in the Direct Method era! :-D
12:30 pm stopspanglish: "I want that you think that she be arriving here..." Ehhhhhhh? And THIS from a Proficiency student! #ELTChat#eltchat
12:30 pm sandymillin: RT @esolcourses: @stopspanglish @rliberni have encountered s's who feel the need to look up every word, & while doing that they miss important stuff #ELTChat
12:30 pm yearinthelifeof: @Shaunwilden Fair point, has to be worth an MBE ;-) #ELTchat
12:30 pm hoprea: @Shaunwilden @EclipsingX I believe that grammar and vocabulary are simpler in the beginning of the course. #ELTChat
12:30 pm sandymillin: RT @englishraven: I think one fear (and personally I think it's relevant) is that if you allow lots of translation, it takes over lessons completely. #ELTChat
12:30 pm sandymillin: RT @rliberni: Some schools actively ban L1 completely #eltchat <mine does
12:31 pm billpellowe: #eltchat I told them that web-based translation sites are not good for their language learning.
12:31 pm esolcourses: @fceblog @datruss with beginners , teacher usually needs to present ideas - with higher level s's, I'd ask them to bring images in #ELTChat
12:31 pm StevenHerder: The L1 use is completely context and level based. Somewhere in Intermediate Ss decide they want 100% English #ELTchat
12:31 pm rliberni: @Shaunwilden had a beginner recently worked out fine with no common language - until her English improved! Amazing speed -necessity #eltchat
12:31 pm Marisa_C: Could you suggest some activities perhaps? Time to move on! @Harmerj suggesting poems into L1s - any more ideas? time for sharing #ELTchat
12:31 pm englishraven: One thing I always felt deeply, deeply uncomfortable with was the use of "English Only!" Zones in EFL contexts... #ELTChat
12:31 pm evelinpj1: I gotta go!. #Eltchat thanks for sharing such a great information!. Have a nice day!.
12:31 pm englishraven: RT @betsydrager: @englishraven like here in CN-my CN colleagues specialty is translation-have learned much from him in 4 yrs-) #ELTChat
12:32 pm englishraven: @evelinpj1 Thanks for being with us! :-) #ELTChat
12:32 pm SueannaN: IN a multilang class, how can the teacher B sure sts are using correct translation.?I have had some funny instances in homework,#ELTchat
12:32 pm rliberni: @sandymillin heard a story of a blind man thrown out of course 4 spking French to dog! School gave dog Eng lessons!! #eltchat
12:32 pm sandymillin: RT @StevenHerder: Somewhere in Intermediate Ss decide they want 100% English #ELTchat <not necessarily. Many of my SS still need persuading
12:32 pm daysealbar: #eltchat don't think any of these should be a norm. Ts should use good sense/use trans as LAST resource, when evth else has been tried.
12:32 pm billpellowe: I show them this baffling translation by a locally-popular online trans. site http://www.flickr.com/photos/b-p/2627199067/ #eltchat
12:32 pm Marisa_C: @evelinpj1 check out transcript later :-) thx for joining #Eltchat
12:32 pm EclipsingX: @hoprea #ELTchat or it might encourage them to engage with a word more. I 've tried to move beyond just translation as a student method
12:33 pm SueannaN: @rliberni That was in Canada and the school had a contract with sts to only speak English #eltchat
12:33 pm TyKendall: i like translating songs @Marisa_C but more about that tonight! #ELTchat
12:33 pm ALiCe__M: @englishraven French only zones are no better. Frustration and whispering in English all around with guilty faces #ELTchat
12:33 pm englishraven: Perhaps one of the reasons translation happens do poorly, is because we've buried it and made it taboo (not harnessed it)? #ELTChat
12:33 pm JoshSRound: RT @rliberni: @sandymillin story of a blind man thrown out of course 4 spking French to dog! School gave dog Eng lessons!! #eltchat LOL!!
12:33 pm michelleworgan: As for activities, how about asking stds to write subtitles in L1 for a tv clip? #ELTchat Never tried it but could be useful for higher lvls
12:33 pm englishraven: RT @ALiCe__M: @englishraven French only zones are no better. Frustration and whispering in English all around with guilty faces #ELTchat
12:33 pm rliberni: RT @TyKendall: i like translating songs @Marisa_C but more about that tonight! #ELTchat #eltchat
12:33 pm englishraven: RT @michelleworgan: As for activities, how about asking stds to write subtitles in L1 for a tv clip? #ELTchatNever tried it but could be useful for higher lvls
12:33 pm bcnpaul1: RT @rliberni: @sandymillin heard a story of a blind man thrown out of course 4 spking French to dog! School gave dog Eng lessons!! #eltchat
12:33 pm StevenHerder: "English Only!" Zones in EFL contexts ARE pretty silly at the wrong level #ELTchat
12:34 pm rliberni: @JoshSRound yes but it was true - so silly #eltchat
12:34 pm englishraven: RT @sandymillin: RT @StevenHerder: Somewhere in Intermediate Ss decide they want 100% English #ELTchat<not necessarily. Many of my SS still need persuading
12:34 pm Marisa_C: The great Mario has a fab activ in a book L1 text with words in L2 every so often #ELTchat - easy to do nowadays
12:34 pm BethCagnol: :-( ! Missing afternoon #ELTCHAT. Glued to chair with two huge writing deadlines on Friday.
12:34 pm BrunoLeys: A complete L1 ban can be unnatural. Id opt for a more positive approach. Make students see the purpose of maximum L2 usage #eltchat
12:34 pm SueannaN: @bethcagnol Hey Beth #ELTCHAT
12:34 pm sandymillin: #eltchat Scraps of paper: L1 one side, L2 the other. Put in circle. Roll dice, say translation (works for very clear direct equivalents)
12:34 pm englishraven: @StevenHerder Welcome to #ELTChat Steven - great to have you here. We moved times to cater to Japan (among many other countries) :-)
12:34 pm hoprea: @englishraven That's pretty much what I think. We got used to equating translating with mindless repetition and rote learning. #ELTChat
12:34 pm barbsaka: Just arrived and trying to catch up--what an amazing #ELTChat this has been so far!
12:35 pm sandymillin: RT @BrunoLeys: A complete L1 ban can be unnatural. Id opt for a more positive approach. Make students see the purpose of maximum L2 usage #eltchat
12:35 pm vbenevolofranca: Agree with @englishraven: esp adult learners, background in lang learning through translation. Can create overeliance in trans. #ELTchat
12:35 pm rliberni: RT @Marisa_C: The great Mario has a fab activ in a book L1 text with words in L2 every so often- easy to do nowadays #eltchat
12:35 pm billpellowe: A few cross-linguistic strategies from my MA thesis http://www2.gol.com/users/billp/thesis/ch5.html #eltchat
12:35 pm MASHinEFL: @sandymillin #ELTchat Of course. When THEY decide it'll be much more successful. My job is to encourage them to try
12:35 pm Marisa_C: @barbsaka Welcome Barbara and thanks for all the work to spread the word on #ELTChat
12:35 pm englishraven: RT @billpellowe: A few cross-linguistic strategies from my MA thesishttp://www2.gol.com/users/billp/thesis/ch5.html #eltchat
12:35 pm rliberni: @barbsaka yes, fast and furious! #eltchat
12:35 pm michelleworgan: My adv stdts and I recently read and translated orally a short story from L1 to L2 - they quite enjoyed the change! #ELTchat
12:35 pm fceblog: @michelleworgan #eltchat Writing subtitles in L1. Hmm. Recognition skills in L2 and production in L1. Which language are we trying to learn?
12:35 pm Marisa_C: RT @rliberni: RT @TyKendall: i like translating songs @Marisa_C but more about that tonight! #ELTchat#eltchat
12:35 pm rliberni: RT @Marisa_C: @barbsaka Welcome Barbara and thanks for all the work to spread the word on #ELTChat#eltchat
12:35 pm englishraven: @barbsaka Welcome the one and only Barb! Great to have you with us #ELTChat
12:35 pm sandymillin: RT @MASHinEFL: @sandymillin #ELTchat Of course. When THEY decide it'll be much more successful. My job is to encourage them to try <agreed!
12:35 pm Shaunwilden: @Marisa_C I remember mario doing a translation exercise at IATEFL once oral sentences such "She missed him", was really useful #ELTChat
12:36 pm hoprea: Over-reliance on any tool or technique is a dangerous thing. #ELTChat
12:36 pm englishraven: RT @hoprea: Over-reliance on any tool or technique is a dangerous thing. #ELTChat
12:36 pm Marisa_C: Translating songs into new rhymes a very precise discipline #ELTchat but fun!
12:36 pm rliberni: RT @hoprea: Over-reliance on any tool or technique is a dangerous thing. Very true! #eltchat
12:36 pm SueannaN: RT @rliberni: RT @hoprea: Over-reliance on any tool or technique is a dangerous thing. Very true! #eltchat
12:36 pm englishraven: @hoprea Right, so how do we set limits, create pathways, to bring translation in from such a long cold? #ELTChat
12:36 pm vbenevolofranca: @BrunoLeys Agree - no banning! Encouraging use as much L2 as possible! #ELTchat
12:36 pm sandymillin: RT @fceblog: @michelleworgan #eltchat Writing subtitles in L1. Which language trying to learn? <depends on if teaching recep / prod skills
12:36 pm michelleworgan: @fceblog We didn't say what the objective of trans type activities was - it can be used for diff reasons from L1 - 2 or L2 - 1 #ELTchat
12:37 pm MASHinEFL: @englishraven #ELTChat Cheers! I had a meeting re-scheduled luckily
12:37 pm sandymillin: RT @hoprea: Over-reliance on any tool or technique is a dangerous thing. #ELTChat
12:37 pm efl101: re. activities - like getting sts to translate L1 newspaper stories into L2 in summary and then present - works in reverse too #ELTchat
12:37 pm fceblog: #eltchat How about having the student choose wikipedia page in their L1, throw the link in Googletranslate, then improve the results?
12:37 pm Marisa_C: Drama activ: Ss act out scene in L1 then watch it in L2 - great for cultural and paraling ftres awareness #ELTchat
12:37 pm hoprea: @englishraven Well, I guess the very first thing is trying to look at it from a fresher perspective. #ELTChat
12:37 pm bcnpaul1: aaaarggh! Trying really hard to follow #eltchat but it's impossible with this computer - I'll have to read the tapescript. :(
12:37 pm sandymillin: RT @vbenevolofranca: @BrunoLeys Agree - no banning! Encouraging use as much L2 as possible! #ELTchat
12:37 pm daysealbar: RT @rliberni: RT @hoprea: Over-reliance on any tool or technique is a dangerous thing. Very true! #eltchat
12:37 pm englishraven: RT @hoprea: Well, I guess the very first thing is trying to look at it from a fresher perspective. #ELTChat > agree!
12:37 pm efl101: RT @Marisa_C: Drama activ: Ss act out scene in L1 then watch it in L2 - great for cultural and paraling ftres awareness #ELTchat
12:38 pm Marisa_C: @MASHinEFL Welcome ! #ELTChat
12:38 pm gknightbkk: Learners want to map ideas in L1 and make sure they have L2 vocab and structures before attempting interactional task #eltchat
12:38 pm michelleworgan: @fceblog Yes, having students improve bad automatic translations can be useful! Like it! #ELTchat
12:38 pm bcnpaul1: did I really say tapescript!? I meant transcript #eltchat
12:38 pm StevenHerder: @MASHinEFL #ELTChat Yikes, meeting starting now. Next time, everyone. Looks like a great bunch!
12:38 pm rliberni: RT @Marisa_C: Translating songs into new rhymes a very precise discipline #ELTchat but fun!
12:38 pm rileymike7: #eltchat not tried it but maybe dubbing film-clips for higher levels
12:38 pm fceblog: @Marisa_C Very interesting #eltchat
12:39 pm Shaunwilden: RT @englishraven: @hoprea how do we set limits..2 bring translation in from such a long cold? #ELTChat Do what we always do, train &show:-)
12:39 pm yassine36: Students need to move from L1 to L2 in real world. Classroom is the best place to start the process smoothly #ELTChat
12:39 pm vbenevolofranca: @sandymillin @StevenHerder #ELTchat This is really the case in monolingual groups: switching to L1 can be so easy at Intermediate level.
12:39 pm hoprea: If we answer in L2 to students' remark in L1, they sometimes naturally end up using L2 later on, and conv may flow more naturally. #ELTChat
12:39 pm rliberni: RT @efl101: re. activities - like getting sts to translate L1 newspaper stories into L2 in summary and then present - works in reverse too #ELTchat
12:39 pm rliberni: RT @Marisa_C: Drama activ: Ss act out scene in L1 then watch it in L2 - great for cultural and paraling ftres awareness #ELTchat
12:39 pm englishraven: Remember when drills were in, then out, then in again (in context/moderation)? Perhaps something similar for translation? #ELTChat
12:39 pm Marisa_C: @StevenHerder recently watched the Paul Nation interview L1>L2 trans also helps vocab aquisition - not sure of research tho #ELTChat
12:39 pm SueannaN: RT @Marisa_C: @StevenHerder recently watched the Paul Nation interview L1>L2 trans also helps vocab aquisition - not sure of research tho #ELTChat
12:39 pm rliberni: RT @Shaunwilden: RT @englishraven: @hoprea how do we set limits..2 bring translation in from such a long cold? #ELTChat Do what we always do, train &show:-)
12:39 pm daysealbar: @vbenevolofranca Yes, using positive reinforcement always. transl as last resource always as a eliciting via English approach. #ELTchat
12:40 pm hoprea: @englishraven Yup! That's the very same thing I've been thinking about. #ELTChat
12:40 pm sandymillin: RT @hoprea: If we answer in L2 to students' remark in L1... #ELTChat <yes, but can be lazy to speak L1 if they know u understand
12:40 pm yassine36: @vbenevolofranca @sandymillin @StevenHerder #ELTchat switching to L1 can be so easy at Intermediate level > I agree
12:40 pm fceblog: @michelleworgan #eltchat With Wikipedia articles, it's easy to find something local not developed yet in En. It could be a real task!
12:40 pm Marisa_C: Drama activ cont: Then they act out same scene in L2 #ELTchat - sorry cldn't describe in 140
12:40 pm rliberni: @englishraven that's the problem with new fads they throw all the others out until the nxt comes along! #eltchat
12:40 pm englishraven: @hoprea Right - good point. The bilingual teacher who listens in L1 and responds in L2. It does actually work well. #ELTChat
12:40 pm rliberni: RT @englishraven: @hoprea Right - good point. The bilingual teacher who listens in L1 and responds in L2. It does actually work well. #ELTChat
12:40 pm datruss: @fceblog Another option, you provide non-examples & they have to come up with examples. #eltchat
12:41 pm michelleworgan: RT @fceblog: @michelleworgan #eltchat With Wikipedia articles, it's easy to find sth local not developed yet in En. It could be a real task!
12:41 pm efl101: If translation is regular and directed part of lessons then often over L1 use diminishes naturally (anecdotal evidence only ;-)) #ELTchat
12:41 pm englishraven: @rliberni I agree. I'm up for reconsidering translation, but want to avoid babies with bathwater and all that... #ELTChat
12:41 pm yearinthelifeof: RT @englishraven: @hoprea Right - good point. The bilingual teacher who listens in L1 and responds in L2. It does actually work well. #ELTChat
12:41 pm englishraven: RT @efl101: If translation is regular and directed part of lessons then often over L1 use diminishes naturally (anecdotal evidence only ;-)) #ELTchat
12:41 pm MartinWarters: RT @rliberni: @englishraven that's the problem with new fads they throw all the others out until the nxt comes along! #eltchat
12:42 pm rliberni: @englishraven quite right but a little of what you fancy does you no harm at all!! Lol #eltchat
12:42 pm hoprea: L1 can also be used for input or conversation trigger. For instance, a newspaper article in L1, but dicussion in L2. #ELTChat
12:42 pm esolcourses: RT @hoprea: L1 can also be used for input or conversation trigger. For instance, a newspaper article in L1, but dicussion in L2. #ELTChat
12:42 pm englishraven: @efl101 Right, so give translation and L1 clearly defined places and roles (and value)? #ELTChat
12:42 pm SueannaN: @rliberni @englishraven Horses for course? #eltchat
12:42 pm hoprea: RT @englishraven: @rliberni I agree. I'm up for reconsidering translation, but want to avoid babies with bathwater and all that... #ELTChat
12:42 pm fceblog: @hoprea #eltchat Exactly. That's the difference between methods and techniques.
12:42 pm englishraven: RT @hoprea: L1 can also be used for input or conversation trigger. For instance, a newspaper article in L1, but dicussion in L2. #ELTChat
12:42 pm Marisa_C: @cybraryman1 Jerry, time to build a translation page ? http://bit.ly/ep1VQS #ELTchat
12:42 pm efl101: RT @hoprea: L1 can also be used for input or conversation trigger. For instance, a newspaper article in L1, but dicussion in L2. #ELTChat
12:42 pm michelleworgan: @hoprea Yes, sometimes the only input material avialble is in L1 for local news #ELTchat
12:42 pm BrunoLeys: Limits are just where it doesn't facilitate learning. Use L1 only when it is the best tool. Not for the sake of using it. #ELTChat
12:43 pm rliberni: RT @hoprea: L1 can also be used for input or conversation trigger. For instance, a newspaper article in L1, but dicussion in L2. #eltchat
12:43 pm sandymillin: RT @hoprea: L1 can also be used for input or conversation trigger. For instance, a newspaper article in L1, but dicussion in L2. #eltchat
12:43 pm Marisa_C: RT @hoprea: L1 can also be used for input or conversation trigger. For instance, a newspaper article in L1, but dicussion in L2. #ELTChat
12:43 pm rileymike7: #eltchat for business lessons replicating real situations useful, eg, getting ss to explain menu, news headlines, signs, etc.,
12:43 pm yearinthelifeof: @englishraven Rephrased the question - Do major publishers perpetuate the idea that L1 is bad? Do they create market expectations? #ELTchat
12:43 pm sandymillin: RT @rileymike7: #eltchat for business lessons replicating real situations useful, eg, getting ss to explain menu, news headlines, signs, etc.,
12:43 pm esolcourses: RT @rliberni RT @Marisa_C: Translating songs into new rhymes a very precise discipline #ELTchat but fun!
12:43 pm rliberni: RT @BrunoLeys: Limits are just where it doesn't facilitate learning. Use L1 when it is the best tool. Not 4 the sake of using it. #eltchat
12:43 pm vbenevolofranca: @hoprea @englishraven #ELTChat Agree 100% Finding right balance during lesson & depends on whether receptive/ productive activity. #ELTchat
12:44 pm Marisa_C: Translation great for practising reported speech as it should be practised - e,g, news articles in L1 #ELTchat
12:44 pm englishraven: @SueAnnan Or parts of courses for parts of horses perhaps... (not a real great image there - sorry!) #ELTChat
12:44 pm billpellowe: Students can demonstrate understanding of different meanings of identical forms by using L1. #eltchat
12:44 pm yearinthelifeof: @englishraven All points of view are valuable! #ELTchat
12:44 pm SueannaN: @englishraven LOL i know what you mean #ELTChat
12:44 pm Marisa_C: RT @billpellowe: Students can demonstrate understanding of different meanings of identical forms by using L1. #eltchat
12:44 pm hoprea: RT @Marisa_C: Translation great for practising reported speech as it should be practised - e,g, news articles in L1 #ELTchat
12:44 pm billpellowe: For example, the 's in He's tall, Let's go, Paul's car, He's called twice #eltchat
12:45 pm michelleworgan: One activity - find a badly translated menu (they are everywhere!) and get stds to improve it - mostly food vocab but a real task #ELTchat
12:45 pm englishraven: @hoprea Mr Oprea. I really think you should so a blog post about this. Your ideas for using translation are excellent. #ELTChat
12:45 pm Marisa_C: Ss can build list of troublesome false cognates #ELTchat - certainly useful for Greek learners
12:45 pm efl101: @englishraven yep helps if place is 'natural' e.g news on L2 country in L1 paper i.e. what is one country's view of another etc. #eltchat
12:45 pm sandymillin: RT @michelleworgan: One activity - find a badly translated menu (they are everywhere!) and get stds to improve it - mostly food vocab but a real task #ELTchat
12:45 pm sandymillin: RT @Marisa_C: Ss can build list of troublesome false cognates #ELTchat - certainly useful for Greek learners <for all learners, I think
12:45 pm rliberni: @rileymike7 interetsing topic the role of publishers in this but they must have reacted initially to sthing? #eltchat
12:45 pm englishraven: RT @efl101: @englishraven yep helps if place is 'natural' e.g news on L2 country in L1 paper i.e. what is one country's view of another etc. #eltchat
12:45 pm daysealbar: @rliberni True! All the methods are viable. Ts should adjust them for effective learning considering sts learning styles #ELTchat
12:45 pm SueannaN: RT @Marisa_C: Ss can build list of troublesome false cognates #ELTchat - certainly useful for Greek learners> and most of my Eropean sts
12:45 pm rliberni: RT @Marisa_C: RT @billpellowe: Students can demonstrate understanding of different meanings of identical forms by using L1. #eltchat
12:46 pm nickkiley: #ELTChat Sorry if said b4 (just arrived), but is this an issue of learner trainer, given large amount of translators, Google domination etc
12:46 pm Shaunwilden: RT @englishraven: @hoprea Mr Oprea. I really think you should so a blog post about this. Your ideas for using translation are excellent. #ELTChat
12:46 pm englishraven: @efl101 Great, I LOVE that! There are so many places/situations where translation is NATURAL! Find 'em and use 'em! #ELTChat
12:46 pm sandymillin: #eltchat Publishers: in my experience, books 2 be sold internationally = no translation, books for local market = almost all translation
12:46 pm michelleworgan: You don't find many ELT tchrs resource or handbooks on translation #ELTchat
12:46 pm rileymike7: ?@michelleworgan: find a badly translated menu and get stds to improve it - mostly food vocab but a real task #ELTchat - - works a treat
12:46 pm Marisa_C: @sandymillin Badly translated menus are great fun! Best item seen so far "Drunkard's tidbits" for some Greek meat dish :-D #ELTchat
12:46 pm rliberni: @Marisa_C yes knowing diffs good for re-inforcement #eltchat
12:46 pm billpellowe: @Marisa_C @hoprea A Japanese teacher at my school tried the opposite: Read articles from Newsweek, etc in L2, discuss in L1 #eltchat
12:46 pm hoprea: @englishraven Thanks for the encouragement. I guess I really will and hope there are lots of comments to enlighten the discussion. #ELTChat
12:46 pm sandymillin: RT @englishraven: @efl101 Great, I LOVE that! There are so many places/situations where translation is NATURAL! Find 'em and use 'em! #ELTChat
12:46 pm fceblog: @efl101 #eltchat You mean, demystifying translation in class reduces the need to translate? That's interesting.
12:46 pm BrunoLeys: @rliberni @hoprea Sounds purposeful. Bring the Ss' world into the classroom and start dealing with emergent L2 language. #eltchat
12:47 pm yearinthelifeof: @michelleworgan The market dictates ;-) #ELTchat
12:47 pm agfigueiredo: RT @vbenevolofranca: Translation is handy with monolingual groups web can't get meaning lexical item across after attempts: translate! Quick & effective.#ELTchat
12:47 pm englishraven: @nickkiley I would agree with that. Good, appropriate, beneficial use of translation could be a matter of learner training. #ELTChat
12:47 pm sandymillin: @Marisa_C #eltchat "Baby coffins with whipped cream" :) Actually pretty tasty!
12:47 pm rliberni: @sandymillin there are some great sites for badly written signage around #eltchat
12:47 pm slister: really enjoying lurking on the #ELTchat amongst language teachers concerning translating in the classroom (right now!)
12:47 pm rliberni: RT @michelleworgan: You don't find many ELT tchrs resource or handbooks on translation #ELTchat #eltchat
12:47 pm chucksandy: how about having students "rehearse" what they wish to say in L1 before doing a task in L2 to increase output/fluency? Works for me #eltchat
12:47 pm michelleworgan: @yearinthelifeof Yes, I'm sure there were plenty of trans books published 50 years ago! #ELTchat
12:47 pm englishraven: RT @rliberni: RT @michelleworgan: You don't find many ELT tchrs resource or handbooks on translation #ELTchat #eltchat
12:48 pm englishraven: RT @chucksandy: how about having students "rehearse" what they wish to say in L1 before doing a task in L2 to increase output/fluency? Works for me #eltchat
12:48 pm Shaunwilden: RT @chucksandy: how about having students "rehearse" what they wish to say in L1 before doing a task in L2 to increase output/fluency? Works for me #eltchat
12:48 pm efl101: correcting mis-translations can be fun too! (and profitable if sts sell corrected version!) #eltchat
12:48 pm Marisa_C: RT @chucksandy: how about having students "rehearse" what they wish to say in L1 b4 doing a task in L2 to increase output/fluency #eltchat
12:48 pm vbenevolofranca: @rliberni @rileymike7 But wonder if we need to include this in books at all!Isn't translation something which arises as lessons go?#eltchat
12:48 pm rliberni: RT @englishraven: @efl101 Great, I LOVE that! There are so many places/sits where translation is NATURAL! Find 'em & use 'em! #eltchat
12:48 pm englishraven: @hoprea Not so sure about explicit 'taught' training - perhaps more in the way of suggestions, ideas? #ELTChat
12:48 pm sandymillin: RT @rliberni: @sandymillin there are some great sites for badly written signage around #eltchat <and some in the #eltpics 'signs' album
12:49 pm hoprea: @billpellowe @Marisa_C That's also a good idea. It helps teachers see whether students really understood what they read. #ELTChat
12:49 pm rliberni: @slister happy to have you lurk! Welcome #eltchat
12:49 pm esolcourses: RT @Marisa_C: @sandymillin Badly translated menus are great fun! Best seen so far "Drunkard's tidbits" for some Greek meat dish :-D #ELTchat
12:49 pm nickkiley: RT @chucksandy: ss "rehearse" what they wish to say in L1 before doing a task in L2 to increase output/fluency? #eltchat > Happens anyway?
12:49 pm efl101: apocryphal I think but Lenin learnt Eng by reverse translating War and Peace (a bloke told me once) #eltchat
12:49 pm englishraven: @chucksandy Yes, know what you mean. It's like creating a mental road map (prepping in L1 before using L2). #ELTChat
12:50 pm hoprea: @englishraven Nicely put, Jason! I believe suggestions are more effective. Strategies are different for each person. #ELTChat
12:50 pm billpellowe: @nickkiley I think you're right #eltchat
12:50 pm englishraven: @nickkiley @chucksandy Yes, happens anyway, but current classroom approaches frown on it or try to bury it... #ELTChat
12:50 pm BrunoLeys: Translating is also a skill in itself (e.g. interpreters), but quite a difficult one and therefore not the purpose of ELT #ELTchat #eltchat
12:50 pm nickkiley: RT @englishraven: @chucksandy It's like creating a mental road map (prepping in L1 before using L2). #ELTChat Agree with idea of mental map
12:51 pm nickkiley: RT @englishraven: @nickkiley @chucksandy Yes, happens anyway, but current classroom approaches frown on it or try to bury it #ELTChat Indeed
12:51 pm JoshSRound: @englishraven: @chucksandy Think I still prefer a mental road map in L2? Do prod activity twice, output improves 2nd time round... #ELTChat
12:51 pm sandymillin: RT @BrunoLeys: Translating is also a skill in itself =quite a difficult one &not the purpose of ELT #ELTchat<depends on context. Might be
12:51 pm sandymillin: RT @JoshSRound: @englishraven: @chucksandy Think I still prefer a mental road map in L2? Do prod activity twice, output improves 2nd time round... #ELTChat
12:51 pm englishraven: @JoshSRound I think level is important here, too. #ELTChat
12:51 pm michelleworgan: Really it all depends on our purposes - are we using trans to check comprehension, to compare systems and use, as a skill? #ELTchat
12:52 pm sandymillin: RT @michelleworgan: Really it all depends on our purposes - are we using trans to check comprehension, to compare systems and use, as a skill? #ELTchat
12:52 pm nickkiley: RT @englishraven: @JoshSRound I think level is important here, too. #ELTChat Yeah, absolutely. Could affect all sorts of considerations
12:52 pm billpellowe: RT @michelleworgan: Really it all depends on our purposes - are we using trans to check comprehension, to compare systems and use, as a skill? #ELTchat
12:52 pm JoshSRound: @englishraven True, depends on level #eltchat
12:52 pm hoprea: What of the new voice translation software that Google and other companies have been advertising? Will they kill ELT? #ELTChat
12:52 pm barbsaka: RT @englishraven: @hoprea I really think you should so a blog post about this. Your ideas for using translation are excellent. #ELTChat
12:52 pm daysealbar: @hoprea @englishraven Agreed! Suggestions, not norms! Strategies, not rules. #ELTChat
12:53 pm englishraven: @michelleworgan Right. At lower levels, trans. is like a coping device. At higher levels, it needs to be more about an art/skill? #ELTChat
12:53 pm sandymillin: RT @englishraven: @michelleworgan Right. At lower levels, trans. is like a coping device. At higher levels, it needs to be more about an art/skill? #ELTChat
12:53 pm rliberni: RT @hoprea: What of the new voice translation software that Google and other companies have been advertising? Will they kill ELT? #eltchat
12:53 pm Shaunwilden: RT @englishraven: @michelleworgan Right. At lower levels, trans. is like a coping device. At higher levels, it needs to be more about an art/skill? #ELTChat
12:53 pm rliberni: @hoprea don't think so ppl still need to perf in English but it may have an effect for passive skills #eltchat
12:53 pm nickkiley: RT @nickkiley: @hoprea My Ss asked me that re voice translation killing ELT. It would have to improve a lot, though... #ELTChat
12:53 pm agfigueiredo: RT @michelleworgan: Really it all depends on our purposes - are we using trans to check comprehension, to compare systems and use, as a skill? #ELTchat
12:54 pm sandymillin: RT @rliberni: @hoprea don't think so ppl still need to perf in English but it may have an effect for passive skills #eltchat
12:54 pm rliberni: RT @englishraven: @michelleworgan Right. At lower levels, trans. is like a coping device. At higher levels, it needs to be more about an art/skill? #ELTChat
12:54 pm nickkiley: RT @nickkiley: RT @nickkiley: @hoprea e voice translation killing ELT. It would have to improve a lot, though... #ELTChat & inc pragmatics
12:55 pm ddeubel: Good morning. Has anyone used google's superb translate chat? I have when corresponding with Ss but not in lessons. #eltchat
12:55 pm rliberni: RT @ddeubel: Good morning. Has anyone used google's superb translate chat? I have when corresponding with Ss but not in lessons. #eltchat
12:55 pm englishraven: I know one thing. (more) acceptance of translation (and better use of it) would give the bilingual teacher a much-needed boost! #ELTChat
12:55 pm CliveSir: My Mega Pile of Ed Blogs Updated - 633 blogs! http://bit.ly/eSCn9J #edchat #ukedchat #eltchat #cpchat#ntchat
12:55 pm SueannaN: RT @englishraven: I know one thing. (more) acceptance of translation (and better use of it) would give the bilingual teacher a much-needed boost! #ELTChat
12:55 pm englishraven: @ddeubel How well does it work? #ELTChat
12:56 pm Marisa_C: RT @ddeubel: Good morning. Has anyone used google's superb translate chat? I have when corresponding with Ss but not in lessons. #eltchat
12:56 pm hoprea: @rliberni @nickkiley They say it may be working in the (very) near future. But I guess it'll only work for basic conv initially. #ELTChat
12:56 pm rliberni: @vbenevolofranca I agree it is incidental at the moment but could it be more than this? #eltchat
12:56 pm englishraven: What about coursebooks? Should we be asking publishers to cater more to the idea/role of translation skills? #ELTChat
12:56 pm SueannaN: @englishraven I had a bit of a nightmare with Google Translate #ELTChat
12:56 pm chucksandy: <in a business meeting but following along. great chat!> #eltchat
12:56 pm BrunoLeys: I believe we have to watch out for the "translation reflex". Whenever Ss see a L2 word they want to know the L1 equivalent #ELTchat #eltchat
12:57 pm pelekas: The trouble is teachers in the Japanese context tend to over use translation. This is often at the expense of fluency #eltchat
12:57 pm esolcourses: Failblog ( possibly NSFW! ) is a good site for finding funny mis-translations that students can correcthttp://bit.ly/bnvCZs #ELTChat
12:57 pm vbenevolofranca: @rliberni @hoprea #eltchat Yes, don't think trans tools will kill ELT. Had a try with diff text genres: difficulty with metaphorical lang.
12:57 pm Marisa_C: @SueAnnan Umberto Eco has a great text in "Experiences of Translation" or looking at an Altavista translation #ELTChat
12:57 pm Shaunwilden: RT @pelekas: The trouble is teachers in the Japanese context tend to over use translation. #eltchat The same is true in the Czech context
12:57 pm sandymillin: @englishraven: asking publishers 2 cater more 2 idea/role of trans skills? #ELTChat <how? Incorporated in old series or separate strands?
12:58 pm SueannaN: RT @Marisa_C: @SueAnnan Umberto Eco has a great text in "Experiences of Translation" or looking at an Altavista translation #ELTChat> thanks
12:58 pm billpellowe: This was fun. #eltchat
12:58 pm englishraven: @pelekas Not just there. Key to the issue of giving translation a better gig is sorting out how/when/why, I think. #ELTChat
12:58 pm rliberni: I use google translate with prospec stds emails it can be very very misleading - I usually get a real 2nd opinion #eltchat
12:58 pm antoniaclare: @englishraven - don't think this is really the role of ELT coursebooks(tch translation skills) -sts go to university to study this #eltchat
12:58 pm Marisa_C: RT @pelekas: The trouble is teachers in the Japanese context tend to over use translation. This is often at the expense of fluency #eltchat
12:58 pm sandymillin: RT @BrunoLeys: I believe we have to watch out for the "translation reflex". Whenever Ss see a L2 word they want to know the L1 equivalent #ELTchat #eltchat
12:58 pm agfigueiredo: RT @englishraven: I know one thing. (more) acceptance of translation (and better use of it) would give the bilingual teacher a much-needed boost! #ELTChat
12:58 pm BethCagnol: Doh! My fave topic got 2nd place. And I'm stuck w/ deadlines. I'll read the transcript for sure! #ELTCHAT Hope to chat music and ELT 2nite!
12:58 pm BArcher001: RT @esolcourses: Failblog ( possibly NSFW! ) is a good site for finding funny mis-translations that students can correct http://bit.ly/bnvCZs #ELTChat
12:58 pm michelleworgan: @englishraven Not necessarily-however the use of long-winded definitions of phrasal vbs could be reduced - trans can be tchs option #ELTchat
12:58 pm BethCagnol: RT @SueannaN: @englishraven I had a bit of a nightmare with Google Translate #ELTChat
12:59 pm rliberni: @vbenevolofranca it's very exciting though! The new developments with translation tools #eltchat
12:59 pm sandymillin: RT @Shaunwilden: RT @pelekas: The trouble is teachers in the Japan overuse translation. #eltchat & in Czech context <& many others.
12:59 pm englishraven: @antoniaclare I disagree. I think there should be dedicated sections in a coursebook for learners to translate (for real purposes) #ELTChat
12:59 pm vbenevolofranca: RT @Marisa_C: @SueAnnan Umberto Eco has a great text in "Experiences of Translation" or looking at an Altavista translation #ELTChat
12:59 pm ddeubel: Ss love this too for translation. http://bit.ly/epLFyY #eltchat
12:59 pm Marisa_C: We are about to finish - last time @Sandymillin wrote up a great summary of the chat - may I ask for a different volunteer today? #ELTchat
12:59 pm adhockley: Thanks to everyone at #ELTchat Enjoyed reading the conversation, and apologies for lurking more than contributing.
1:00 pm barbsaka: What a blast! Way to go Asia--really enjoyed following along with #ELTChat! See you next week :-)
1:00 pm fceblog: @englishraven #eltchat At higher levels, translation is a good awareness trigger. I'd say contrastive analysis. Art is too much, you know.
1:00 pm rliberni: @englishraven nice idea - tho we have to remember that translation is itself a very difficult skill #eltchat
1:00 pm nickkiley: #ELTChat Could translation be death of mono-lingual NESTs?
1:00 pm michelleworgan: RT @fceblog: @englishraven #eltchat At higher levels, translation is a good awareness trigger. I'd say contrastive analysis. Art is too much
1:00 pm englishraven: @antoniaclare For example: Listen to the man (speaking in English). Translate for your boss (in your own country). #ELTChat
1:00 pm Marisa_C: RT @ddeubel: Ss love this too for translation. http://bit.ly/epLFyY #eltchat
1:00 pm Shaunwilden: @Marisa_C I can do it if noone else wants to #ELTChat
1:00 pm SueannaN: @englishraven There are in Straightforward series at all levels #ELTChat
1:00 pm sandymillin: RT @Marisa_C: We are about to finish - last time @Sandymillin wrote up a great summary of the chat - different volunteer today? #ELTchat ;)
1:01 pm antoniaclare: Yes, thanks to all. Got called away by phonecall from Hungary, but great to take part. I'll be back 4 more soon. thanks #ELTchat
1:01 pm ddeubel: @Marisa_C @pelekas I agree - that's the slippery slope, misuse because it facilitates communication but little learning at times. #eltchat
1:01 pm rliberni: Got to dash - great moderators in @maris_c and @englishraven today - thanks what a gr8 discussion! #eltchat
1:01 pm nickkiley: RT @englishraven: @antoniaclare Listen to the man (speaking in English). Translate for your boss (in your own country). #ELTChat> Nice
1:01 pm billpellowe: Ever hear of Reciprocal Data Driven Learning (DDL) materials (Johns, 1996)? #eltchat
1:01 pm Marisa_C: @Shaunwilden Thanks Shaun I would love you to do it and put it up on your blog - will send you link to transcript asap #ELTChat
1:02 pm Shaunwilden: @Marisa_C Cool will give me sth to do on the coach home this evening :-) Is tonights chat the same time as always? #ELTChat
1:02 pm chucksandy: RT @englishraven: @antoniaclare I disagree. I think there should be dedicated sections in a coursebook for learners to translate (for real purposes) #ELTChat
1:02 pm BethCagnol: @SueAnnan Has anyone suggested alternatives to written homework during this #ELTCHAT (Google translate has been an issue for me).
1:02 pm antoniaclare: @englishraven - yes, I agree some translation good idea. Sorry was talking about skills in general. #eltchat
1:02 pm Marisa_C: @Shaunwilden Yes, same time for tonight's chat as always 9pm. London time #ELTChat
1:02 pm englishraven: @rliberni Absolutely. But I think we can start simple/practical and in moderation... #ELTChat
1:02 pm nickkiley: RT @rliberni: Got to dash - great moderators in @maris_c and @englishraven today - thanks what a gr8 discussion! #eltchat> Agreed on both
1:02 pm billpellowe: DDL uses parallel corpus excerpts to compare specific meanings/usages. Example: use Disneyland brochures side-by-side. #eltchat
1:03 pm englishraven: @antoniaclare Yep, see (and agree with your point). :-) #ELTChat
1:03 pm hoprea: Many thanks to all #ELTChat folks for a lot of food for thought this morning. :)
1:03 pm SueannaN: @bethcagnol I know it's a nightmare #ELTCHAT
1:03 pm sandymillin: @SueAnnan written homework #ELTCHAT (Google translate = issue for me)<ask SS to translate back into L1 & compare 2 versions! Often surprised
1:03 pm rliberni: @englishraven I agree - but I think it's worth making the point that class translation a prof translation are diff #eltchat
1:04 pm SueannaN: RT @sandymillin: @SueAnnan written homework #ELTCHAT (Google translate = issue for me)<ask SS to translate back into L1 & compare 2 versions! Often surprised
1:04 pm Marisa_C: Thanks to all who joined #ELTchat today and welcome to nee #ELTChatters! to my co-mods @riberni & @englishravenhuge thanks
1:04 pm sandymillin: RT @rliberni: @englishraven I agree - but I think it's worth making the point that class translation a prof translation are diff #eltchat
1:04 pm JoshSRound: Thanks 4 gr8t #eltchat again and thanks @marisa_C and @englishraven for moderating. V enjoyable discussion/ideas
1:04 pm englishraven: Not a usual thing for #ELTChat perhaps, but I'd like to dedicate our 'thoughts' to all the flooded out ELTers and ELLs in Brisbane and Qld
1:04 pm SueannaN: RT @englishraven: Not a usual thing for #ELTChat perhaps, but I'd like to dedicate our 'thoughts' to all the flooded out ELTers and ELLs in Brisbane and Qld
1:05 pm sandymillin: Time flies when you're having fun. Thanks for great #eltchat & to mods @Marisa_C @englishraven and @rliberni
1:05 pm sandymillin: RT @englishraven: Not a usual thing for #ELTChat perhaps, but I'd like to dedicate our 'thoughts' to all the flooded out ELTers and ELLs in Brisbane and Qld
1:05 pm BethCagnol: @sandymillin @SueAnnan Thanks! #ELTCHAT . It's going to take some "out-of-the-box" thinking.
1:05 pm buthaina: RT @SueannaN: @englishraven I had a bit of a nightmare with Google Translate #ELTChat
1:05 pm chucksandy: RT @englishraven: Not a usual thing for #ELTChat perhaps, but I'd like to dedicate our 'thoughts' to all the flooded out ELTers and ELLs in Brisbane and Qld
1:06 pm englishraven: Always a pleasure #ELTChat and huge thanks to our mods @Marisa_C @Shaunwilden @rliberni Thx to all who made 1st chat at new time a good one!
1:06 pm SueannaN: Thanks to moderators and all participants in #ELTChat
1:06 pm nickkiley: RT @englishraven: #ELTChat I'd like to dedicate our 'thoughts' to all the flooded> Always gd to remember the human element during tech chat
1:06 pm JoshSRound: RT @JoshSRound: Thanks 4 gr8t #eltchat again AND thanks to @rliberni as well for moderating!! V enjoyable discussion/ideas :))
1:06 pm Marisa_C: Announcement for next week's #ELTchat : @barbsaka will join us as guest moderator ! We hope to talk her into staying on! :-)
1:06 pm esolcourses: Thanks for another excellent #ELTChat everyone, & to @rliberni @Marisa_C @englishraven for moderating! Catch you later :-)
1:07 pm vbenevolofranca: Great #ELTchat. Think we could go on with this for hours. So many different aspects to cover.Thanks @Marisa_C @englishraven for moderating!
1:07 pm BethCagnol: @SueAnnan A friend told me she'll to stop all written homework & do in-class writing from now on. For marks, she has no choice. #ELTCHAT
1:07 pm chucksandy: RT @Marisa_C: Announcement for next week's #ELTchat : @barbsaka will join us as guest moderator ! We hope to talk her into staying on! :-)
1:07 pm paperheretic: RT @ALiCe__M: @englishraven French only zones are no better. Frustration and whispering in English all around with guilty faces #ELTchat
1:07 pm rileymike7: #eltchat thanks all, off to tell the teachers to translate everything from now on ;-)
1:07 pm Marisa_C: RT @rileymike7: #eltchat thanks all, off to tell the teachers to translate everything from now on ;-) > Te he he !!!!
1:07 pm MartinWarters: #eltchat Thanks all. Enjoy the rest of your day.
1:07 pm BethCagnol: RT @englishraven: Not a usual thing for #ELTChat perhaps, but I'd like to dedicate our 'thoughts' to all the flooded out ELTers and ELLs in Brisbane and Qld
1:07 pm nickkiley: RT @rileymike7: #eltchat thanks all, off to tell the teachers to translate everything from now on ;-)
1:07 pm sandymillin: RT @rileymike7: off to tell the teachers to translate everything from now on ;-) <must change teaching style after every #eltchat ;)
1:08 pm JoshSRound: Will miss tonight's #eltchat Going to Londosa New Year Social :)) Have fun later!!
1:08 pm paperheretic: RT @hoprea: Over-reliance on any tool or technique is a dangerous thing. #ELTChat
1:08 pm stharitou: RT @Marisa_C: RT @rileymike7: #eltchat thanks all, off to tell the teachers to translate everything from now on ;-) > Te he he !!!!
1:08 pm Marisa_C: Transcript for this #ELTchat will be up soon - stay put all and @shaunwilden our man for today's summary!
1:08 pm englishraven: RT @Marisa_C: Transcript for this #ELTchat will be up soon - stay put all and @shaunwilden our man for today's summary!
1:08 pm sandymillin: RT @Marisa_C: Transcript for this #ELTchat will be up soon - stay put all and @shaunwilden our man for today's summary!
1:09 pm SueannaN: @bethcagnol Yes. My husband tried to translate sailing results from French to E. It was gobbledeguck. #ELTCHAT
1:09 pm nickkiley: #ELTChat Good to have a meeting of minds. Thanks all (Mike, I hope you'll tell them in Italian...)
1:10 pm Marisa_C: @Shaunwilden Can we also share your summary on eltchat.com ? I think everyone would love that! #ELTChat
1:12 pm cybraryman1: WedChat:#ClavEd #ELTchat #ntchat #ptchat #ecosys#PHDchat#edmusichat#SGAchat #web20chat#DistEd#smchat#yalitchat#FYCchat:http://bit.ly/9bCqR
1:14 pm Moacir2: #eltchat the calculation is based on experience and observation: ex: a 60min class having an 12min exercise on vocab +tranlastion
1:14 pm Marisa_C: http://bit.ly/hBzVsm Tweetchat.com is great for #ELTchat if you don't have tweetdeck with easy RT's
1:14 pm rliberni: RT @cybraryman1: WedChat:#ClavEd #ELTchat #ntchat #ptchat #ecosys#PHDchat#edmusichat#SGAchat#web20chat #DistEd#smchat#yalitchat#FYCchat:http://bit.ly/9bCqR
1:15 pm Marisa_C: @yearinthelifeof Great! We'll be doing it every week from now on! #ELTchat
1:15 pm Moacir2: #eltchat translation's purpose in the lang classroom is to lead to single language use.
1:16 pm Marisa_C: @Moacir2 well.... this is very subjective with all due respect #eltchat
1:18 pm nickkiley: RT @Shaunwilden: Guy cook's wonderful talk on translation is now online http://bit.ly/dXYNFq Was this mentioned in #ELTChat
1:18 pm englishraven: RT @nickkiley: RT @Shaunwilden: Guy cook's wonderful talk on translation is now online http://bit.ly/dXYNFqWas this mentioned in #ELTChat
1:19 pm sandymillin: RT @Shaunwilden: Guy cook's wonderful talk: translation from #DOSconference is now onlinehttp://bit.ly/dXYNFq <off 2 watch it now! #eltchat
1:19 pm Harmerj: @Marisa_C sorry I had to/have to bow out. Have to go. A good conversation. #ELTchat
1:19 pm Moacir2: #eltchat translation can be scattered during class time in order not to disrupt other Ss.in monolingual cls it can be gr8 group or hwk.
1:20 pm rliberni: RT @sandymillin: RT @Shaunwilden: Guy cook's wonderful talk: translation from #DOSconference is now online http://bit.ly/dXYNFq <off 2 watch it now! #eltchat
1:20 pm englishraven: @Harmerj Thanks for joining us (however briefly) for #ELTChat Nice to have you pop in!
1:20 pm argyre: RT @englishraven: Not a usual thing for #ELTChat perhaps, but I'd like to dedicate our 'thoughts' to all the flooded out ELTers and ELLs in Brisbane and Qld
1:20 pm Gusbarcellos: Just logged in. Interesting discussion on translation in ELT. I was never against moderate L1 use in class. #ELTchat
1:21 pm englishraven: @okamisensei But is that just/purely because of translation? I'd call it poor translation... + other factors of course #ELTChat
1:23 pm Marisa_C: @Gusbarcellos hope u can join next time - transcript will be up soon #ELTchat
1:23 pm yearinthelifeof: @englishraven @Harmerj Thanks too for joining us (however briefly) for #ELTChat Wouldn't get the chance to chat in the real world!
1:24 pm englishraven: I think our new #ELTChat first session time has been a success. Good sign for future chats, with more ELTers from more places. Happy! :-)
1:24 pm Marisa_C: @riberni will be uploading transcript soon - must say ciao for now and see you all later! #ELTchat
1:24 pm Marisa_C: @englishraven Very happy! Very rich conversation and thanks to all who joined #ELTChat
1:25 pm Marisa_C: @Harmerj No worries - we loved having you even for a little while - next time perhaps #ELTchat
1:27 pm nickkiley: @englishraven @Marisa_C It's a great use of Twitter to connect people - gr8 yr thinking of start times. Thx all involved. #ELTChat
1:28 pm EclipsingX: Thanks for the conversation today:) I really enjoyed it and the new time is great #ELTChat
1:32 pm EclipsingX: Thanks for the RTs @Shaunwilden @ayearinthelifeof @esolcourses @Marisa_C #ELTChat
1:33 pm rliberni: @EclipsingX thanks for coming - it was a good session glad the time has helped ppl to join in #eltchat

 

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