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SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T11:56:54 |
Are you ready for #ELTChat in 4 minutes. Talking about ELF and how it affects our teaching practice |
angelos_bollas |
2015-11-18T11:59:58 |
You can also use our nurph channel: https://t.co/hPMtG9uVCx #eltchat https://t.co/E8SVuZ5FdH |
TwitLiveEvents |
2015-11-18T12:01:39 |
November 18, 2015 at 07:00AM Twitter Chat - #eltchat #TwitterChat Visit https://t.co/52cTeoQ3Zw for more events. |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:01:51 |
Who's here for #ELTchat ? |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T12:01:59 |
@SueAnnan I'm ready! #ELTchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:02:48 |
@MattEllman Great. Nice to see you @MattEllman #eltchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:03:41 |
English as a LIngua Franca- an interesting topic. I'm sure you hear lots of it in your classes. I do #ELTchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:04:01 |
@patrickelt hello #eltchat |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T12:04:23 |
It's looking very quiet... #ELTchat |
patrickelt |
2015-11-18T12:05:47 |
@MattEllman Yes, is it just the three of us? #eltchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:06:16 |
what do you do about the /th/ sounds in your lessons? Do you worry if the students substitute something else? #ELTchat |
angelos_bollas |
2015-11-18T12:06:29 |
Am also here #ELTchat - A little bit on the background due to preps... |
patrickelt |
2015-11-18T12:06:43 |
@SueAnnan @MattEllman I suppose we can think about different aspects of language (eg skills) #eltchat |
nyeeles |
2015-11-18T12:07:18 |
hi everyone, there is a good podcast about English as a Lingua Franca from the BBC a couple of years ago. https://t.co/PzgFtN9hBb #eltchat |
angelos_bollas |
2015-11-18T12:07:22 |
@SueAnnan An issue with some cultures, not all. Greeks, for example, pronounce /th/ sounds correctly. #eltchat |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T12:07:39 |
Pron is where ELF is most useful - it genuinely helps to enable communication between L2 speakers #ELTchat |
thebooksweluv |
2015-11-18T12:07:46 |
RT @TwitLiveEvents: November 18, 2015 at 07:00AM Twitter Chat - #eltchat #TwitterChat Visit https://t.co/52cTeoQ3Zw for more events. |
patrickelt |
2015-11-18T12:07:48 |
@SueAnnan It depends whether it makes a difference to how well they are understood #eltchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:07:58 |
@patrickelt @MattEllman a lot of what I hear is in speaking skills. I only correct if it causes problems for understanding though #eltchat |
patrickelt |
2015-11-18T12:08:24 |
@SueAnnan The problem is "understood by who"? As language teachers we are often good at understanding #eltchat |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T12:08:30 |
I have no issue with substituting /th/ and I think ELF research shows that it doesn't impede communication between L2 speakers #ELTchat |
nyeeles |
2015-11-18T12:08:34 |
@SueAnnan Here in England where I teach I hear lots of different native speaker substitutions: /d/ and /f/ for example! #ELTchat |
patrickelt |
2015-11-18T12:08:45 |
@SueAnnan ...and perhaps more tolerant as a result. #eltchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:09:15 |
@nyeeles yes. Me too. The problem is whether it is accepted by exam boards #eltchat |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T12:09:51 |
@patrickelt @SueAnnan It comes down to context, & stds' needs - if they are going to be communicating with other L2 spkrs, it works #ELTchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:09:58 |
Good point. I was thinking of group lessons #ELTchat https://t.co/CNySBNA9xA |
patrickelt |
2015-11-18T12:10:02 |
@nyeeles @SueAnnan As a child my mother used to threaten me with elocution lessons for that reason #eltchat |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T12:10:43 |
@SueAnnan @nyeeles Only a problem if students are taking exams... :) #ELTchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:10:51 |
@MattEllman @patrickelt sure. But exam boards haven't caught up #eltchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:11:29 |
do you see much evidence of it in sts written work? #ELTChat |
kendraELT |
2015-11-18T12:12:09 |
Hello Everyone, speaking of catching up...looking through the posts so far #ELTchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:12:40 |
@kendraELT Hi. Glad you could join in #eltchat |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T12:13:03 |
@SueAnnan I think it's less successful in other areas of teaching. Let's remember that #ELF isn't really a single entity #ELTchat |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T12:13:43 |
@kendraELT Hi Kendra! #ELTchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:13:55 |
@MattEllman would you like to define your idea of what it is then? #eltchat |
Nurph |
2015-11-18T12:14:10 |
RT @Marisa_C: Goodnight all fab #ELTchat people - sorry we got a tad distracted with video in @nurph here is a screenshot :-) https://t.co/… |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T12:14:24 |
I think ELF is best thought of as an approach to be applied in certain contexts - it's not a language variety #ELTchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:15:11 |
@MattEllman I agree. It is particularly useful amongst NNs when there isn't a NS in the mix #eltchat |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T12:15:48 |
For some students the native-speaker reference point isn't appropriate - that's where ELF comes in. #ELTchat |
patrickelt |
2015-11-18T12:16:04 |
@MattEllman But doesn't Jenkins try to define how it could be a variety? #eltchat |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T12:17:23 |
@patrickelt She defines a core group of phonemes that are essential to L2-L2 communication, but that doesn't make a variety #ELTchat |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T12:18:01 |
@patrickelt The way ELF is realised will vary widely depending on the L1s of the speakers involved. #ELTchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:18:10 |
Seidlhofer explains it as Any use of E among speakers of diff. 1st langs, for whom E is often the only option as a commun. medium #ELTchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:19:17 |
How should this inform our teaching practice? #ELTChat |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T12:19:54 |
@SueAnnan Pretty broad - that definition could lead to more ELFs than lapland! #ELTchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:20:17 |
@MattEllman Love it :-) #eltchat |
VEO_app |
2015-11-18T12:20:44 |
"Lesson Observations: How do we get the best from them?"https://t.co/yGKd7YMl9A @chilledu#ELTChat #edchat https://t.co/PbSXUy75Nw |
patrickelt |
2015-11-18T12:20:57 |
@SueAnnan I suppose it affects priorities and also the development of communication strategies #eltchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:21:27 |
@VEO_app we are in the middle of a chat at the moment #eltchat |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T12:21:52 |
In terms of teaching, it provides a useful model for prioritising pron work #ELTchat |
kendraELT |
2015-11-18T12:22:12 |
That's a broad def, but there's a common use among L2 speakers that gives it more of an identity than that #ELTchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:22:15 |
It all goes back to the Horses for Courses thing #eltchat What do our students need? |
laIoli |
2015-11-18T12:22:28 |
I find it extremely difficult to do futurology about what my learners will need, and that's why I struggle with ELF. #ELTchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:22:48 |
RT @MattEllman: In terms of teaching, it provides a useful model for prioritising pron work #ELTchat |
nyeeles |
2015-11-18T12:22:54 |
@SueAnnan in our Dip class last wk the advice was to ask sts: do you want to sound British? American? like yourself? #ELTChat |
kendraELT |
2015-11-18T12:22:59 |
Commonalities including and beyond pron #ELTchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:24:02 |
Is it really confined to speaking, then? #ELTchat |
laIoli |
2015-11-18T12:25:03 |
Take me, for example. I thought I'd always live and work in Buenos Aires, but life surprised me and I live and work in the UK #eltchat |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T12:25:17 |
Maybe common structural features, but I'm hesitant to teach them. Perhaps best left as a guide to priorities when correcting #ELTchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:25:18 |
Do you consider the LF core when you teach? #ELTchat |
laIoli |
2015-11-18T12:25:44 |
Had my teachers taught me ELF, I would be out of a job now. #eltchat |
kendraELT |
2015-11-18T12:26:34 |
Agreed @MattEllman I have a hard time wrapping my head around teaching that sub-verb agreement is not necessary. #ELTchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:26:47 |
I don't think we should TEACH ELF, but we need to recognise it and deal with it as per our sts needs#ELTChat |
ConzieSays |
2015-11-18T12:27:53 |
@SueAnnan I'd say communicative confidence firstly, but beyond that its a case by case #eltchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:28:16 |
I agree #ELTchat https://t.co/yrGIu1fiez |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T12:28:37 |
@kendraELT Absolutely - if you start teaching things like that it's a race to the bottom, surely? #ELTchat |
nyeeles |
2015-11-18T12:29:07 |
@MattEllman I find it hard to understand incorrect intonation BUT it's not a barrier to non-native chat.So not top priority 4class #ELTChat |
kendraELT |
2015-11-18T12:29:36 |
I wrestle with that daily, the ownership of the language. Is it really a race to the bottom? Who am I to say. @MattEllman #ELTchat |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T12:30:22 |
@SueAnnan Yes - it helps to remove the native speaker ego from the equation when std needs don't involve NS standards #ELTchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:30:24 |
Jenkins suggested that tone and word stress weren't crucial to intelligibility in an ELF context. Not sure I agree #ELTchat |
Marisa_C |
2015-11-18T12:30:49 |
Hello everyone and sorry to be late - was in class #eltchat but will try to catch up |
kendraELT |
2015-11-18T12:31:02 |
I agree with Jenkins on stress, as it can change meaning #ELTchat |
Marisa_C |
2015-11-18T12:31:11 |
I love this comment #eltchat https://t.co/a9zf7cOLbB |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T12:31:17 |
@kendraELT I wouldn't say it's an ownership issue, just that input needn't necessarily mirror output #ELTchat |
michaelegriffin |
2015-11-18T12:31:22 |
RT @SueAnnan: I don't think we should TEACH ELF, but we need to recognise it and deal with it as per our sts needs#ELTChat |
Marisa_C |
2015-11-18T12:31:33 |
#eltchat And you ! We have missed you! https://t.co/nNJU7pVfKB |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:31:38 |
@kendraELT but she said it wasn't important ! #eltchat |
kendraELT |
2015-11-18T12:31:39 |
Sorry, you quoted WEREN'T crucial. In that case I disagree #ELTchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:31:53 |
RT @MattEllman: @kendraELT I wouldn't say it's an ownership issue, just that input needn't necessarily mirror output #ELTchat |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T12:32:24 |
@SueAnnan @kendraELT Aren't we bringing in NS norms now? :) #ELTchat |
nyeeles |
2015-11-18T12:32:33 |
It's interesting to introduce the idea of the LF core to sts. Graphs showing non-native speaker usage good for IELTS practice too! #ELTCHat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:32:37 |
@kendraELT me too. I've had some interesting situations where I hadn't a clue #eltchat |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T12:33:16 |
@kendraELT @SueAnnan The important point is not crucial *to communication between L2 speakers* #ELTchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:33:39 |
@nyeeles but not during the exam. It's a conundrum :-) #eltchat |
kendraELT |
2015-11-18T12:34:03 |
I teach Turkish stds that typically stress words and sentences at the end and are syllable timed... #ELTchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:34:08 |
@MattEllman @kendraELT True #eltchat |
kendraELT |
2015-11-18T12:34:33 |
For them it is difficult to get their points across in presentations, meetings and negotiations if they don't work on stress #ELTchat |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T12:34:45 |
I have to say I've yet to meet a student that didn't want to be understood by native speakers as well as L2 speakers #ELTchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:35:01 |
@kendraELT Needs are king! #eltchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:35:46 |
@MattEllman MY students come for lessons to learn 'proper' English- their words #eltchat |
kendraELT |
2015-11-18T12:36:21 |
There is another definition needed - which English is 'proper' haha #ELTchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:36:50 |
@kendraELT Oh GOD. A minefield here :-) #eltchat |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T12:37:04 |
@SueAnnan Yes - a lot of ELF discourse ignores the fact that very few stds actually seem to want it! #ELTchat |
nyeeles |
2015-11-18T12:37:05 |
Thinking about ELF gets to the heart of teaching, doesn't it? What does communicative competence really mean?! #ELTChat |
Marisa_C |
2015-11-18T12:38:33 |
Too late to get involved in #ELTchat but sharing previous ones - one on ELF & Pronunication in Storify https://t.co/uuHmOZldJv |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:39:12 |
so work receptively rather than productively? #ELTchat https://t.co/xAsliNiKeT |
DiLeed |
2015-11-18T12:40:26 |
RT @Marisa_C: Too late to get involved in #ELTchat but sharing previous ones - one on ELF & Pronunication in Storify https://t.co/uuHmOZldJv |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T12:41:10 |
@SueAnnan Ask students what they want, and work from there. If ELF is appropriate, great. If not, ditch it! #ELTchat |
patrickelt |
2015-11-18T12:42:04 |
@MattEllman @SueAnnan Yes, there is an article by Kuo on that and I had a student from China who wrote a diss on this #eltchat |
CrowdTClassroom |
2015-11-18T12:42:12 |
RT @Marisa_C: Too late to get involved in #ELTchat but sharing previous ones - one on ELF & Pronunication in Storify https://t.co/uuHmOZldJv |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:42:28 |
@MattEllman My sentiments exactly. But my students have never opted for ELF. #ELTChat |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T12:42:32 |
@MattEllman And what they *need*... #ELTchat |
kendraELT |
2015-11-18T12:42:34 |
I think ELF will change the language as it is spoken by NS, and in turn change how we teach in the future #ELTchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:43:30 |
@kendraELT I think it is a long way off. We have to get the exam boards to change first #eltchat |
Marisa_C |
2015-11-18T12:44:02 |
@SueAnnan @MattEllman agree - Ss don't opt for ELF classes - they think it's Santa talk!!! #eltchat |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T12:44:09 |
@kendraELT Interesting! I think if that happens it will be to a very limited extent, but who knows? #ELTchat |
patrickelt |
2015-11-18T12:44:13 |
@kendraELT Yes and as teachers, don't we simplify sounds sometimes esp weak forms (a kind of ELF?)? #eltchat |
kendraELT |
2015-11-18T12:44:20 |
Not for a long while agreed @SueAnnan but I do see it influencing materials and curriculum one day #ELTchat |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T12:45:16 |
RT @Marisa_C: @SueAnnan @MattEllman agree - Ss don't opt for ELF classes - they think it's Santa talk!!! #eltchat |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T12:46:17 |
@patrickelt @kendraELT That's accommodation, which is different to ELF. Def a skill all students need though #ELTchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:48:05 |
@MattEllman @patrickelt @kendraELT and all teachers #eltchat |
mari_proi |
2015-11-18T12:48:09 |
RT @tom_flaherty: How do you use authentic materials in a low-level #esp classroom? All ideas/activities/sites welcome - thank you! #elt #e… |
michaelegriffin |
2015-11-18T12:48:11 |
What do people think this "Teaching" of ELF might look like? #ELTchat |
patrickelt |
2015-11-18T12:48:13 |
@MattEllman @kendraELT Understood but is it not the same impulse? #eltchat |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T12:48:20 |
@patrickelt @kendraELT Maybe we should teach accommodation skills instead of ELF - the goal is the same: successful communication #ELTchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:48:33 |
@michaelegriffin Hi Mike #eltchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:49:03 |
RT @MattEllman: @patrickelt @kendraELT Maybe we should teach accommodation skills instead of ELF - the goal is the same: successful communi… |
michaelegriffin |
2015-11-18T12:49:16 |
@SueAnnan Hi! Have been mostly lurking but decide to pop in with 12 min remaining. ;) #ELTchat |
patrickelt |
2015-11-18T12:49:16 |
@MattEllman @kendraELT Yes, I would agree. #eltchat |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T12:50:34 |
@patrickelt @kendraELT i guess it's looking at it as a skill, and not as a uniform *thing*. Appeals to me... #ELTchat |
michaelegriffin |
2015-11-18T12:50:48 |
For me #ELF is more about acknowledging that English is in fact a lingua franca and is used in different ways all over.#eltchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:51:25 |
So basically, we need to ensure intelligibility when sts are dealing with others, mainly NNs and also NS, according to their needs#ELTchat |
patrickelt |
2015-11-18T12:51:49 |
@MattEllman @kendraELT Yes and our aim more generally is to make learners flexible and appropriate communicators #eltchat |
patrickelt |
2015-11-18T12:52:08 |
@MattEllman @kendraELT your suggestion seems to fit that #eltchat |
Marisa_C |
2015-11-18T12:52:23 |
The voice of sanity - except that some academics sell books have careers etc - very cynical view (mine) #eltchat https://t.co/ysGaa8wGFt |
kendraELT |
2015-11-18T12:52:23 |
That sums it up @SueAnnan #ELTchat |
michaelegriffin |
2015-11-18T12:52:47 |
I don't think there are many ppl advocating throwing out the third person S (or teaching/ talking without it!) because ELF. #EL#ELTchat |
nyeeles |
2015-11-18T12:53:00 |
EnglishNext examines the declining influence of UK/US English;perhaps we'll see internationally-recognised exams with other models? #ELTChat |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T12:53:16 |
@michaelegriffin Absolutely, and recognising that NSs don't have a role to play in all of those situations #ELTchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:53:34 |
@nyeeles I suppose if students were consistent, it might work. #eltchat |
michaelegriffin |
2015-11-18T12:53:53 |
@Marisa_C I don't recall ever being the voice of sanity anywhere. ;) #eltchat Good point about academics! |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:55:14 |
As we're getting towards the end, could I prevail upon someone to write the summary?#ELTchat |
patrickelt |
2015-11-18T12:55:17 |
@MattEllman @michaelegriffin Yes and NSs are often poor communicators #eltchat |
nyeeles |
2015-11-18T12:55:52 |
@MattEllman I'm not sure if sbd who'd been taught in an 'ELF-aware' way would be misunderstood; just wouldn't sound native #ELTchat |
michaelegriffin |
2015-11-18T12:56:01 |
#ELTchat I also think knowing this is not always so important for communication might help Ts set priorities and avoid unneeded NS norms |
kendraELT |
2015-11-18T12:56:25 |
@Marisa_C @michaelegriffin I don't fault the academics, I could see wanting to geek out on the subject, study it closer #ELTchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:57:02 |
Summary, anyone? #ELTchat |
michaelegriffin |
2015-11-18T12:57:21 |
@kendraELT @Marisa_C True enough, it is a very interesting (and far reaching) topic as we can see from this chat. #ELTchat |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T12:58:03 |
@nyeeles Depends on who they're talking to, perhaps - see @patrickelt's comment about NS being poor communicators #ELTchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T12:59:57 |
As always, A discussion that gets the juices flowing. Thanks everyone for your thoughts. #ELTchat |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T13:01:11 |
The real value of ELT summed up nicely! #ELTchat https://t.co/zSikZQpgDB |
MattEllman |
2015-11-18T13:01:33 |
Thanks for the chat, everyone! #ELTchat |
SueAnnan |
2015-11-18T13:01:51 |
Don't forget that next week's chat is at the later time of 9PM GMT. Thanks everyone#ELTChat |
kendraELT |
2015-11-18T13:02:35 |
Great chat, guys, thanks! #ELTchat |
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