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ELF and its effect on our teaching

Page history last edited by sue annan 8 years, 4 months ago
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SueAnnan 2015-11-18T11:56:54 Are you ready for #ELTChat in 4 minutes. Talking about ELF and how it affects our teaching practice
angelos_bollas 2015-11-18T11:59:58 You can also use our nurph channel: https://t.co/hPMtG9uVCx #eltchat  https://t.co/E8SVuZ5FdH
TwitLiveEvents 2015-11-18T12:01:39 November 18, 2015 at 07:00AM Twitter Chat - #eltchat #TwitterChat Visit https://t.co/52cTeoQ3Zw for more events.
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:01:51 Who's here for #ELTchat ?
MattEllman 2015-11-18T12:01:59 @SueAnnan I'm ready! #ELTchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:02:48 @MattEllman Great. Nice to see you @MattEllman #eltchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:03:41 English as a LIngua Franca- an interesting topic. I'm sure you hear lots of it in your classes. I do #ELTchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:04:01 @patrickelt hello #eltchat
MattEllman 2015-11-18T12:04:23 It's looking very quiet... #ELTchat
patrickelt 2015-11-18T12:05:47 @MattEllman Yes, is it just the three of us?  #eltchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:06:16 what do you do about the /th/ sounds in your lessons? Do you worry if the students substitute something else? #ELTchat
angelos_bollas 2015-11-18T12:06:29 Am also here #ELTchat - A little bit on the background due to preps...
patrickelt 2015-11-18T12:06:43 @SueAnnan @MattEllman I suppose we can think about different aspects of language (eg skills) #eltchat
nyeeles 2015-11-18T12:07:18 hi everyone, there is a good podcast about English as a Lingua Franca from the BBC a couple of years ago.  https://t.co/PzgFtN9hBb #eltchat
angelos_bollas 2015-11-18T12:07:22 @SueAnnan An issue with some cultures, not all. Greeks, for example, pronounce /th/ sounds correctly. #eltchat
MattEllman 2015-11-18T12:07:39 Pron is where ELF is most useful - it genuinely helps to enable communication between L2 speakers #ELTchat
thebooksweluv 2015-11-18T12:07:46 RT @TwitLiveEvents: November 18, 2015 at 07:00AM Twitter Chat - #eltchat #TwitterChat Visit https://t.co/52cTeoQ3Zw for more events.
patrickelt 2015-11-18T12:07:48 @SueAnnan It depends whether it makes a difference to how well they are understood #eltchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:07:58 @patrickelt @MattEllman a lot of what I hear is in speaking skills. I only correct if it causes problems for understanding though #eltchat
patrickelt 2015-11-18T12:08:24 @SueAnnan The problem is "understood by who"?  As language teachers we are often good at understanding #eltchat
MattEllman 2015-11-18T12:08:30 I have no issue with substituting /th/ and I think ELF research shows that it doesn't impede communication between L2 speakers #ELTchat
nyeeles 2015-11-18T12:08:34 @SueAnnan Here in England where I teach I hear lots of different native speaker substitutions: /d/ and /f/ for example! #ELTchat
patrickelt 2015-11-18T12:08:45 @SueAnnan ...and perhaps more tolerant as a result. #eltchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:09:15 @nyeeles yes. Me too. The problem is whether it is accepted by exam boards #eltchat
MattEllman 2015-11-18T12:09:51 @patrickelt @SueAnnan It comes down to context, & stds' needs - if they are going to be communicating with other L2 spkrs, it works #ELTchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:09:58 Good point. I was thinking of group lessons #ELTchat https://t.co/CNySBNA9xA
patrickelt 2015-11-18T12:10:02 @nyeeles @SueAnnan As a child my mother used to threaten me with elocution lessons for that reason #eltchat
MattEllman 2015-11-18T12:10:43 @SueAnnan @nyeeles Only a problem if students are taking exams... :) #ELTchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:10:51 @MattEllman @patrickelt sure. But exam boards haven't caught up #eltchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:11:29 do you see much evidence of it in sts written work? #ELTChat
kendraELT 2015-11-18T12:12:09 Hello Everyone, speaking of catching up...looking through the posts so far #ELTchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:12:40 @kendraELT Hi. Glad you could join in #eltchat
MattEllman 2015-11-18T12:13:03 @SueAnnan I think it's less successful in other areas of teaching. Let's remember that #ELF isn't really a single entity #ELTchat
MattEllman 2015-11-18T12:13:43 @kendraELT Hi Kendra! #ELTchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:13:55 @MattEllman would you like to define your idea of what it is then? #eltchat
Nurph 2015-11-18T12:14:10 RT @Marisa_C: Goodnight all fab #ELTchat people - sorry we got a tad distracted with video in @nurph here is a screenshot :-) https://t.co/…
MattEllman 2015-11-18T12:14:24 I think ELF is best thought of as an approach to be applied in certain contexts - it's not a language variety #ELTchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:15:11 @MattEllman I agree. It is particularly useful amongst NNs when there isn't a NS in the mix #eltchat
MattEllman 2015-11-18T12:15:48 For some students the native-speaker reference point isn't appropriate - that's where ELF comes in. #ELTchat
patrickelt 2015-11-18T12:16:04 @MattEllman But doesn't Jenkins try to define how it could be a variety? #eltchat
MattEllman 2015-11-18T12:17:23 @patrickelt She defines a core group of phonemes that are essential to L2-L2 communication, but that doesn't make a variety #ELTchat
MattEllman 2015-11-18T12:18:01 @patrickelt The way ELF is realised will vary widely depending on the L1s of the speakers involved. #ELTchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:18:10 Seidlhofer explains it as Any use of E among speakers of diff. 1st langs, for whom E is often the only option as a commun. medium #ELTchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:19:17 How should this inform our teaching practice? #ELTChat
MattEllman 2015-11-18T12:19:54 @SueAnnan Pretty broad - that definition could lead to more ELFs than lapland! #ELTchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:20:17 @MattEllman Love it :-) #eltchat
VEO_app 2015-11-18T12:20:44 "Lesson Observations: How do we get the best from them?"https://t.co/yGKd7YMl9A @chilledu#ELTChat #edchat https://t.co/PbSXUy75Nw
patrickelt 2015-11-18T12:20:57 @SueAnnan I suppose it affects priorities and also the development of communication strategies #eltchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:21:27 @VEO_app  we are in the middle of a chat at the moment #eltchat
MattEllman 2015-11-18T12:21:52 In terms of teaching, it provides a useful model for prioritising pron work #ELTchat
kendraELT 2015-11-18T12:22:12 That's a broad def, but there's a common use among L2 speakers that gives it more of an identity than that #ELTchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:22:15 It all goes back to the Horses for Courses thing #eltchat What do our students need?
laIoli 2015-11-18T12:22:28 I find it extremely difficult to do futurology about what my learners will need, and that's why I struggle with ELF. #ELTchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:22:48 RT @MattEllman: In terms of teaching, it provides a useful model for prioritising pron work #ELTchat
nyeeles 2015-11-18T12:22:54 @SueAnnan  in our Dip class last wk the advice was to ask sts: do you want to sound British? American? like yourself? #ELTChat
kendraELT 2015-11-18T12:22:59 Commonalities including and beyond pron #ELTchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:24:02 Is it really confined to speaking, then? #ELTchat
laIoli 2015-11-18T12:25:03 Take me, for example. I thought I'd always live and work in Buenos Aires, but life surprised me and I live and work in the UK  #eltchat
MattEllman 2015-11-18T12:25:17 Maybe common structural features, but I'm hesitant to teach them. Perhaps best left as a guide to priorities when correcting #ELTchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:25:18 Do you consider the LF core when you teach? #ELTchat
laIoli 2015-11-18T12:25:44 Had my teachers taught me ELF, I would be out of a job now.  #eltchat
kendraELT 2015-11-18T12:26:34 Agreed @MattEllman I have a hard time wrapping my head around teaching that sub-verb agreement is not necessary. #ELTchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:26:47 I don't think we should TEACH ELF, but we need to recognise it and deal with it as per our sts needs#ELTChat
ConzieSays 2015-11-18T12:27:53 @SueAnnan I'd say communicative confidence firstly, but beyond that its a case by case #eltchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:28:16 I agree #ELTchat https://t.co/yrGIu1fiez
MattEllman 2015-11-18T12:28:37 @kendraELT Absolutely - if you start teaching things like that it's a race to the bottom, surely? #ELTchat
nyeeles 2015-11-18T12:29:07 @MattEllman I find it hard to understand incorrect intonation BUT it's not a barrier to non-native chat.So not top priority 4class #ELTChat
kendraELT 2015-11-18T12:29:36 I wrestle with that daily, the ownership of the language. Is it really a race to the bottom? Who am I to say. @MattEllman  #ELTchat
MattEllman 2015-11-18T12:30:22 @SueAnnan Yes - it helps to remove the native speaker ego from the equation when std needs don't involve NS standards #ELTchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:30:24 Jenkins suggested that tone and word stress weren't crucial to intelligibility in an ELF context. Not sure I agree #ELTchat
Marisa_C 2015-11-18T12:30:49 Hello everyone and sorry to be late - was in class #eltchat but will try to catch up
kendraELT 2015-11-18T12:31:02 I agree with Jenkins on stress, as it can change meaning  #ELTchat
Marisa_C 2015-11-18T12:31:11 I love this comment #eltchat https://t.co/a9zf7cOLbB
MattEllman 2015-11-18T12:31:17 @kendraELT I wouldn't say it's an ownership issue, just that input needn't necessarily mirror output #ELTchat
michaelegriffin 2015-11-18T12:31:22 RT @SueAnnan: I don't think we should TEACH ELF, but we need to recognise it and deal with it as per our sts needs#ELTChat
Marisa_C 2015-11-18T12:31:33 #eltchat And you ! We have missed you!  https://t.co/nNJU7pVfKB
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:31:38 @kendraELT but she said it wasn't important ! #eltchat
kendraELT 2015-11-18T12:31:39 Sorry, you quoted WEREN'T crucial. In that case I disagree #ELTchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:31:53 RT @MattEllman: @kendraELT I wouldn't say it's an ownership issue, just that input needn't necessarily mirror output #ELTchat
MattEllman 2015-11-18T12:32:24 @SueAnnan @kendraELT Aren't we bringing in NS norms now? :) #ELTchat
nyeeles 2015-11-18T12:32:33 It's interesting to introduce the idea of the LF core to sts. Graphs showing non-native speaker usage good for IELTS practice too! #ELTCHat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:32:37 @kendraELT me too. I've had some interesting situations where I hadn't a clue #eltchat
MattEllman 2015-11-18T12:33:16 @kendraELT @SueAnnan The important point is not crucial *to communication between L2 speakers* #ELTchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:33:39 @nyeeles but not during the exam. It's a conundrum :-) #eltchat
kendraELT 2015-11-18T12:34:03 I teach Turkish stds that typically stress words and sentences at the end and are syllable timed... #ELTchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:34:08 @MattEllman @kendraELT True #eltchat
kendraELT 2015-11-18T12:34:33 For them it is difficult to get their points across in presentations, meetings and negotiations if they don't work on stress #ELTchat
MattEllman 2015-11-18T12:34:45 I have to say I've yet to meet a student that didn't want to be understood by native speakers as well as L2 speakers #ELTchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:35:01 @kendraELT Needs are king! #eltchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:35:46 @MattEllman MY students come for lessons to learn 'proper' English- their words #eltchat
kendraELT 2015-11-18T12:36:21 There is another definition needed - which English is 'proper' haha #ELTchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:36:50 @kendraELT Oh GOD. A minefield here :-) #eltchat
MattEllman 2015-11-18T12:37:04 @SueAnnan Yes - a lot of ELF discourse ignores the fact that very few stds actually seem to want it! #ELTchat
nyeeles 2015-11-18T12:37:05 Thinking about ELF gets to the heart of teaching, doesn't it?  What does communicative competence really mean?! #ELTChat
Marisa_C 2015-11-18T12:38:33 Too late to get involved in #ELTchat but sharing previous ones - one on ELF & Pronunication in Storify https://t.co/uuHmOZldJv
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:39:12 so work receptively rather than productively? #ELTchat https://t.co/xAsliNiKeT
DiLeed 2015-11-18T12:40:26 RT @Marisa_C: Too late to get involved in #ELTchat but sharing previous ones - one on ELF & Pronunication in Storify https://t.co/uuHmOZldJv
MattEllman 2015-11-18T12:41:10 @SueAnnan Ask students what they want, and work from there. If ELF is appropriate, great. If not, ditch it! #ELTchat
patrickelt 2015-11-18T12:42:04 @MattEllman @SueAnnan Yes, there is an article by Kuo on that and I had a student from China who wrote a diss on this #eltchat
CrowdTClassroom 2015-11-18T12:42:12 RT @Marisa_C: Too late to get involved in #ELTchat but sharing previous ones - one on ELF & Pronunication in Storify https://t.co/uuHmOZldJv
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:42:28 @MattEllman My sentiments exactly. But my students have never opted for ELF. #ELTChat
MattEllman 2015-11-18T12:42:32 @MattEllman And what they *need*... #ELTchat
kendraELT 2015-11-18T12:42:34 I think ELF will change the language as it is spoken by NS, and in turn change how we teach in the future #ELTchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:43:30 @kendraELT I think it is a long way off. We have to get the exam boards to change first #eltchat
Marisa_C 2015-11-18T12:44:02 @SueAnnan @MattEllman   agree - Ss don't opt for ELF classes - they think it's Santa talk!!! #eltchat
MattEllman 2015-11-18T12:44:09 @kendraELT Interesting! I think if that happens it will be to a very limited extent, but who knows? #ELTchat
patrickelt 2015-11-18T12:44:13 @kendraELT Yes and as teachers, don't we simplify sounds sometimes esp weak forms (a kind of ELF?)? #eltchat
kendraELT 2015-11-18T12:44:20 Not for a long while agreed @SueAnnan but I do see it influencing materials and curriculum one day    #ELTchat
MattEllman 2015-11-18T12:45:16 RT @Marisa_C: @SueAnnan @MattEllman   agree - Ss don't opt for ELF classes - they think it's Santa talk!!! #eltchat
MattEllman 2015-11-18T12:46:17 @patrickelt @kendraELT That's accommodation, which is different to ELF. Def a skill all students need though #ELTchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:48:05 @MattEllman @patrickelt @kendraELT and all teachers #eltchat
mari_proi 2015-11-18T12:48:09 RT @tom_flaherty: How do you use authentic materials in a low-level #esp classroom? All ideas/activities/sites welcome - thank you! #elt #e…
michaelegriffin 2015-11-18T12:48:11 What do people think this "Teaching" of ELF might look like?  #ELTchat
patrickelt 2015-11-18T12:48:13 @MattEllman @kendraELT Understood but is it not the same impulse? #eltchat
MattEllman 2015-11-18T12:48:20 @patrickelt @kendraELT Maybe we should teach accommodation skills instead of ELF - the goal is the same: successful communication #ELTchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:48:33 @michaelegriffin Hi Mike #eltchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:49:03 RT @MattEllman: @patrickelt @kendraELT Maybe we should teach accommodation skills instead of ELF - the goal is the same: successful communi…
michaelegriffin 2015-11-18T12:49:16 @SueAnnan Hi! Have been mostly lurking but decide to pop in with 12 min remaining. ;) #ELTchat
patrickelt 2015-11-18T12:49:16 @MattEllman @kendraELT Yes, I would agree.  #eltchat
MattEllman 2015-11-18T12:50:34 @patrickelt @kendraELT i guess it's looking at it as a skill, and not as a uniform *thing*. Appeals to me... #ELTchat
michaelegriffin 2015-11-18T12:50:48 For me #ELF is more about acknowledging that English is in fact a lingua franca and is used in different ways all over.#eltchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:51:25 So basically, we need to ensure intelligibility when sts are dealing with others, mainly NNs and also NS, according to their needs#ELTchat
patrickelt 2015-11-18T12:51:49 @MattEllman @kendraELT Yes and our aim more generally is to make learners flexible and appropriate communicators #eltchat
patrickelt 2015-11-18T12:52:08 @MattEllman @kendraELT your suggestion seems to fit that #eltchat
Marisa_C 2015-11-18T12:52:23 The voice of sanity - except that some academics sell books have careers etc - very cynical view (mine) #eltchat  https://t.co/ysGaa8wGFt
kendraELT 2015-11-18T12:52:23 That sums it up @SueAnnan  #ELTchat
michaelegriffin 2015-11-18T12:52:47 I don't think there are many ppl advocating throwing out the third person S  (or teaching/ talking without it!) because ELF. #EL#ELTchat
nyeeles 2015-11-18T12:53:00 EnglishNext examines the declining influence of UK/US English;perhaps we'll see internationally-recognised exams with other models? #ELTChat
MattEllman 2015-11-18T12:53:16 @michaelegriffin Absolutely, and recognising that NSs don't have a role to play in all of those situations #ELTchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:53:34 @nyeeles I suppose if students were consistent, it might work. #eltchat
michaelegriffin 2015-11-18T12:53:53 @Marisa_C I don't recall ever being the voice of sanity anywhere. ;)  #eltchat Good point about academics!
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:55:14 As we're getting towards the end, could I prevail upon someone to write the summary?#ELTchat
patrickelt 2015-11-18T12:55:17 @MattEllman @michaelegriffin Yes and NSs are often poor communicators #eltchat
nyeeles 2015-11-18T12:55:52 @MattEllman I'm not sure if sbd who'd been taught in an 'ELF-aware' way would be misunderstood; just wouldn't sound native #ELTchat
michaelegriffin 2015-11-18T12:56:01 #ELTchat I also think knowing this is not always so important for communication might help Ts set priorities and avoid unneeded NS norms
kendraELT 2015-11-18T12:56:25 @Marisa_C @michaelegriffin I don't fault the academics, I could see wanting to geek out on the subject, study it closer   #ELTchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:57:02 Summary, anyone? #ELTchat
michaelegriffin 2015-11-18T12:57:21 @kendraELT @Marisa_C True enough, it is a very interesting (and far reaching) topic as we can see from this chat. #ELTchat
MattEllman 2015-11-18T12:58:03 @nyeeles Depends on who they're talking to, perhaps - see @patrickelt's comment about NS being poor communicators #ELTchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T12:59:57 As always, A discussion that gets the juices flowing. Thanks everyone for your thoughts. #ELTchat
MattEllman 2015-11-18T13:01:11 The real value of ELT summed up nicely! #ELTchat https://t.co/zSikZQpgDB
MattEllman 2015-11-18T13:01:33 Thanks for the chat, everyone! #ELTchat
SueAnnan 2015-11-18T13:01:51 Don't forget that next week's chat is at the later time of 9PM GMT. Thanks everyone#ELTChat
kendraELT 2015-11-18T13:02:35 Great chat, guys, thanks! #ELTchat
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